Womens rights in Japan or elsewhere

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Yes, legally.
In marriages, however, they tend to receive the lesser role when it comes to property and the like. (But this is more related to "head of household" on paperwork than gender. A woman can take the head of household role on registration, but it defaults to the husband.)



For the same job with the same hours and same benefits - yes.
Note that I emphasize same in there. I`ll clarify a bit more on this below.



Technically, yes. Do they take advantage of it? That is the bigger question, in my opinion.

For a lot of westerners, it is very hard to comprehend the way this works in Japan. I have probably written more posts on this than any other subject during my time on JF.

I will quote myself from some random posts I made at some point in time that kind of sum things up;
"Japan obviously isn`t perfect, but a determined woman really wouldn`t have too much trouble reaching a high position. The thing is, a lot (dare I say most?) women here don`t want that responsibility. They want to be able to quit on a whim when they get married or have children.

A funny note - In Japan, the fact that fewer women are currently working is considered a sign that the economy is recovering. Why? Because more families can afford to have the mother stay at home. In most cases, working mothers are working out of necessity - not choice. When given a choice (in the case that the husband is making enough to support the household alone) most women will choose to stay at home."

"Look at the popular western female`s opinion of the women in Japan... That they`re all oppressed and held down by the men - without ever bothering to actually look at the fact that the "oppression" is an active choice made by women. Staying at home is the best-case-scenario in most cases. It`s the dream women strive for. Not the "My husband won`t let me work" everyone loves to jump to conclusions about."

"A lot of the "women treated unfairly" stuff is really a myth based on misinterpretation. I`ve covered it a lot in other topics, but basically from a "western" viewpoint, it seems that no one can believe a woman would ever possibly CHOOSE to leave her job and stay at home once she is married/has children. In their eyes, it looks to be "oppression"... Even though the women choose to do so of their own free will. So this big "women are inferior in Japan!" talk spreads. Most women choose to stay home with the kids. Some don`t. Most women are content to take a lower salary because of the lack of strings attached to it - if the company is paying you a lot there is a lot more pressure to continue working... They`ve invested a lot in you. But if it`s lower to begin with (I`m talking like 85% of the average male salary, not like incredibly low), there is very little pressure to keep working once you decide to quit for family reasons. Employers expect it, so everyone parts on good terms. There are companies out there that pay women full salaries - sometimes in the same company there will be two standards - and those are the type of women who generally continue to work. The only reason the lower salary is more common is because the women themselves PREFER it as it takes the pressure off of them in the future."

"I`ve never met a man who has actually thought women were inferior. Even the older generations - they are wane to put responsibility on young women who join companies - mainly for the reasons I have quoted myself about. This doesn`t mean they think they are inferior. It means that they know from experience what generally happens. Superior/inferior has virtually nothing to do with it.

My husband is Japanese, quite traditional, from a traditional family, raised in a small village pretty much isolated from city influence.
He doesn`t think I`m inferior, and is in fact quite jealous of the choices available to me. He is expected to work, but I can choose to either stay home, work, continue my education, etc.
Even in the village where he was raised, it`s generally the women who are actually in charge."

Currently, there is a sort of "affirmative action" law in place for employers (I forget the name of it...) in which they are almost required to hire an equal number of women and men when at all possible and offer them identical positions and salaries.

Companies have an incredibly difficult time finding women who are willing to take those positions. Women will often state from day one that they do not want that level of responsibility, and that they want a position offering the freedom to leave at any time. For women who want to dedicate their lives to a career - companies are MORE than willing to hire them as women in positions of power in a company means tax breaks.

More quotes;
"It`s not "some" women choosing to quit and raise their family. It`s the overwhelming majority.
Take, for example, my husband`s company. In the year he was hired, and the two following years, they hired a total of 42 women. (About the same number of men.) The company has a female manager, and there is no "glass ceiling" preventing them from rising up in the ranks.

Now, five years later, only EIGHT of those women still work there. ALL the others quit of their own volition within those 5 years. The reasons? "Marriage" and "To raise a child" are the overwhelming choices. There were a couple of women who had medical reasons, and a few who just randomly quit, etc. None were fired.

Of the eight remaining, one of them is on my husband`s team, and is getting married next month. The company is trying very very hard to convince her to stay, offering her big bonuses, and literally begging.... She`s an excellent programmer. But she has said that she will most likely be leaving within a couple months of the wedding.

This is pretty much the case all over Japan. Women quit - whether the company wants them to or not - when they get married or have children. Because the women *plan* to do this, they don`t WANT a lot of responsibility on their heads to have to feel bad about when they leave. (Which is very responsible of them.)

I don`t believe that "women`s rights" has to fit the mold of, say, the US in order to exist.

(By the way, out of the 46 men hired during the same 3 year period - only 6 of them have quit.)

It does indeed take longer for a company to trust a woman with high-responsiblity work... Because most of the time they only hang around for as long as a "termporary" worker. Temporary workers, regardless of their gender, also aren`t trusted with important long-term work. The company would be stupid to do so. Imagine giving an important project to someone who just decides to leave in the middle of it!
But after the woman has married and expressed that she will not be leaving, or the temporary worker becomes a full fledged employee... They are treated the same as any other employee.

"smart enough" or "skilled enough" isn`t an issue. It`s the normal rate at which women leave their jobs, regardless of their skill."

Tons of quoting, but I hate to waste time repeating myself.

I have brought this back down as a reminder of what nyrororin explained to us.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by RealJames

only as long as it is absolutely necessary in order to seduce and lock her in to taking care of him

Ha Ha James! You should know LOL.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Being a Mother should be the most natural thing in the world. Isn't that what the Creation was all about.

Some women just don't have that natural urge to become a mother or either the woman's biological clock isn't ticking or has "timed out". I know, for me, my "ticking" was strong when I was in my early to mid 20s, but by the time I reached about 25, it started to die off. At this point in my life, I have no particular desire to actually become a mother, which is ironic because I really love kids. Either way, the urge just isn't there anymore. I also have no desire to marry ever. I've felt like this since I was a kid and I grew up in a stable two-parent home. The idea of marriage has just never appealed to me since I lack the patience to put up with a husband. Funny how I have patience with kids, though.

I'm also not sure if I could handle raising a child, even though I've been told I'd probably do well because I get along with young children so well, while also making sure that said children know his/her boundaries as I do believe that children should be disciplined whenever they do something wrong, whether it be taking a toy away or punishing them or taking away something they really like, etc. With the way society is now, I'm not sure if I could do it anyway. I'm kind of old-fashioned, and I'm sure my "old-fashioned" ways would clash with this modern society. I've even been told one time, "You need to join the 21st century." That was earlier this year. lol

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

I have brought this back down as a reminder of what nyrororin explained to us.

It is only Nyororins opinions though and I certainly don't agree with them all.

[dogsbody70]

sorry the website does not seem to copy correctly.

[dogsbody70]

none of us have to agree at all but its an interesting discussion isn't it.

to each their own as they say.


Although being a mother and a house wife is not automatic is it?

These days house work is so easy compared to the past. you have washing machines, hoovers, easy access shopping etc.

House work Used to be FULL TIME job. what woman actually enjoyed it?

Scrubbing polishing cooking washing by hand etc. No it took alot of time.

Now it is so easy-- can get easy meals without needing to cook if you don't want to.

Its a different age now altogether.

[GoNative]

Housework? My wife and I barely know what it is! That's what the cleaners are for!

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

none of us have to agree at all but its an interesting discussion isn't it.

to each their own as they say.


Although being a mother and a house wife is not automatic is it?

These days house work is so easy compared to the past. you have washing machines, hoovers, easy access shopping etc.

House work Used to be FULL TIME job. what woman actually enjoyed it?

Scrubbing polishing cooking washing by hand etc. No it took alot of time.

Now it is so easy-- can get easy meals without needing to cook if you don't want to.

Its a different age now altogether.

Housework is work regardless if it's not as "hard" as it was years ago or not. Sure, you have a washer/dryer, but you still have to iron, fold, and put the clothes away when they're done. If you're living in Japan, more than likely, you won't even have a dryer and have to hang out the laundry.

You still have to clean the home (manual stuff, like mopping/scrubbing/vaccuming/sweeping/dusting, etc) and you still have to cook and clean up when done, etc.

I consider being a homemaker a full-time job, regardless if there are things you can do to make it easier.

I personally hate housework. If I was a housewife, that aspect of it would make me miserable. If I was a housewife, I'd want to be rich enough to pay someone to do it for me. lol

[siokan]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

I wonder about equal pay for equal jobs?

It is necessary to increase the number of employees for the woman who takes a rest for the child care and birth.
Risk management to woman from whom probability of retiring for various reasons rises.
Capital contribution to facilities where child is kept while parents are working.


Only the public servant : the return at 1800 to the house.
It is usual not to be able to meet the child who stays up excluding Sunday.


There is a trend that hesitates to make the woman come home at midnight though it is Japanese and might be peculiar. (Aversion of Crime)
Company by which I was working ahead. (high season)
Woman : get home 2100
Man : the last train 0100? or all night

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Housework? My wife and I barely know what it is! That's what the cleaners are for!

OH GN I wish!!