Womens rights in Japan or elsewhere

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by SSJup81

Housework is work regardless if it's not as "hard" as it was years ago or not. Sure, you have a washer/dryer, but you still have to iron, fold, and put the clothes away when they're done. If you're living in Japan, more than likely, you won't even have a dryer and have to hang out the laundry.

You still have to clean the home (manual stuff, like mopping/scrubbing/vaccuming/sweeping/dusting, etc) and you still have to cook and clean up when done, etc.

I consider being a homemaker a full-time job, regardless if there are things you can do to make it easier.

I personally hate housework. If I was a housewife, that aspect of it would make me miserable. If I was a housewife, I'd want to be rich enough to pay someone to do it for me. lol

WHo does like housework-- ?Not I. you do one thing one day and it needs doing again the next especially with young children or pets about. teenages also tend to leave their clothes everywhere etc.



well I stopped ironing many years lol. I have a neighbour who has no children-- not choice-- but circumstances-- However she makes staying at home a full time job. Her house is spotless-- but it lacks personality altogether.

She is ALWAYS BUSY--Not sure with what? but since she stopped work she has never returned.


My own daughter works full time-- always has done-- she has a crippled partner plus three teenage girls plus other peoples girls as well.

MY son works hard his wife does not help with finances-- she home schools their two daughters. Not sure I am happy about that plus it puts a lot of strain on our son having to work many extra hours in order to make ends meet plus pay the part mortgage part rental scheme.

she used to have an au pair when the girls were young. They hated it but they seem to have survived.

Many private landlords charge sky high rents-- especially in certain popular areas.


Over here some people are taking in students as a way of making an income plus now that rent is so high-- LOdgers are coming back into fashion.

Lodging used to be the Norm-- Lodgers usually have their own room plus food cooked for them etc and sharing the home facilities.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by siokan

It is necessary to increase the number of employees for the woman who takes a rest for the child care and birth.
Risk management to woman from whom probability of retiring for various reasons rises.
Capital contribution to facilities where child is kept while parents are working.


Only the public servant : the return at 1800 to the house.
It is usual not to be able to meet the child who stays up excluding Sunday.


There is a trend that hesitates to make the woman come home at midnight though it is Japanese and might be peculiar. (Aversion of Crime)
Company by which I was working ahead. (high season)
Woman : get home 2100
Man : the last train 0100? or all night

that seems like slave labour hours to me. My japanese female friend worked terrible hours also for many years.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by SSJup81

Some women just don't have that natural urge to become a mother or either the woman's biological clock isn't ticking or has "timed out". I know, for me, my "ticking" was strong when I was in my early to mid 20s, but by the time I reached about 25, it started to die off. At this point in my life, I have no particular desire to actually become a mother, which is ironic because I really love kids. Either way, the urge just isn't there anymore. I also have no desire to marry ever. I've felt like this since I was a kid and I grew up in a stable two-parent home. The idea of marriage has just never appealed to me since I lack the patience to put up with a husband. Funny how I have patience with kids, though.

I'm also not sure if I could handle raising a child, even though I've been told I'd probably do well because I get along with young children so well, while also making sure that said children know his/her boundaries as I do believe that children should be disciplined whenever they do something wrong, whether it be taking a toy away or punishing them or taking away something they really like, etc. With the way society is now, I'm not sure if I could do it anyway. I'm kind of old-fashioned, and I'm sure my "old-fashioned" ways would clash with this modern society. I've even been told one time, "You need to join the 21st century." That was earlier this year. lol

I am sure you are right here. Not all women Do want to have children and when you see the behaviour fo some badly disciplined children its enough to put you off for ever.

I am sure that was my own mothers view-- which is why she got rid of me or I was taken away from her.


Actually I love dogs and horses best. I have bred dogs for many years and get so much pleasure from them.

[dogsbody70]

Career woman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


about japanese career women

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I didn't mean to ignore your points, I just felt you'd gone astray arguing if discrimination is good or a necessary evil or unavoidable etc, as opposed to if it exists or not.
Black people would still be slaves if we assumed that racial roles were an affordable evil due to the good they caused economically, which it really did do.

James, you are essentially saying that because I think gender roles are a part of nature, I am a misogynist, just as if I were to say there are any differences between races I would be a racist.

I just want to point that out and then reject it, completely.

Originally Posted by RealJames

To address your points though.

Gender roles work very well in Japan, they cause this society to be a very well oiled machine and it's almost exemplary, many men and women are happy to play their roles.
Those gender roles are very strong in fact, it's because of that that Japan does so well with them. People follow them without a fuss and seem quite fine with them.

At least until the overworked man commits suicide.
Or until the bored housewife loses all romantic interest in her virtually non-existent husband.
Or until a woman wants to have both a career and a family.

I'm not in a position to argue whether or not this is good, Japan has thrived under these conditions, but it's been the cause of a lot of anxiety and also it's frowned upon by most westerners who see it from the outside.

You are mixing in the macro-system and the micro-systems, but let's at them.

At least until the overworked man commits suicide.

The worth ethic and (over)expectations of the Japanese businessman are well documented. But is that a problem with that, or with gender roles?

Or until the bored housewife loses all romantic interest in her virtually non-existent husband.

Again, is this a gender role problem, or a work expectation problem?

Or until a woman wants to have both a career and a family.

Is this actually happening? It seems that the problem in Japan is that women are more interested in working, and having a career, or more importantly freedom for longer in life, and that is why people are marrying later and there are fewer children.

This is a complicated issue, but simply put, this control is much in the hands of women. This is why I ask, "where is the oppression"?

Although I think your micro-system examples of why the macro-system don't work, it is worth looking at.

Can society absorb those that cannot function withing the "norms" and still survive? Of course! There are subcultures in all societies, including Japan, that don't live in traditional gender roles.

Can micro-systems survive? Of course, there are many people who do not fit into traditional gender roles who thrive in society.

Originally Posted by RealJames

With regards to discrimination, I'm not talking about the kind of survival discrimination we all use daily. I'm talking about the kind of discrimination that takes away freedom of choice or even the awareness of that choice.

More and more women in Japan are exercising that freedom. So where is the oppression?

Originally Posted by RealJames

Just to be clear, I see nothing wrong with a woman wanting to be a housewife.
What I do see as wrong is a woman typecasting herself as a housewife without the option of considering a career. Or if she does have that option, to have a much more difficult time doing it than a man.

I have to say this is a very Western outlook, which is natural, but I just want to point that out.

I think many Japanese women might return with "Why would I want a career? For a society to function SOMEONE has to raise the children. Why is the world for women divided into two categories: career or housewife? For me, being a mom and a wife IS my job... my career. My home is my castle not a prison sentence."

Why is success measured in dollars and cents? Why can't it be in a beautiful home and well-behaved and studious children, for example?

[TalnSG]

The descriptions of women in regard to Japan's workplace and James' questions are beginning to feel all too familiar.

In the early 1970's I was a theatre major in college. Of 4 major universities and 3 professional theatre's in the area I was the only female in a production management role other than costuming ("sewing and makeup is women's work" so it was ok). I was told repeatedly that women could not and should not use power tools. I was told often enough that women could not supervise construction crews because they could not manage men. It was total BS, but sometimes it really wasn't worth the name calling, being ostracized by both genders, and the necessity of being better than any of men. I completely understood the other women in my productions that gave up in favor of not having their personal lives wrecked. It was blatant discrimination by professors, directors and fellow students. But my stubborness paid off by seeing a steady succession of younger women follow and eventually even the playing field.

Another classic example is that if a man is asked his opinion on a business project and says "No, I think we can find a better way" there may be grumbling, but it is considered a valid judgement. If a woman say's the exact same thing she will often be called "obstinate", "uncooperative", and in private a much fouler term. I still see it happening in the U.S. today and I have seen it in meetings with Japanese (male) executives visiting here. That is what the U.S. government has defined as a "hostile work environment" - the classic piece of evidence in most workplace discrimination suits.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

WHo does like housework-- ?Not I. you do one thing one day and it needs doing again the next especially with young children or pets about. teenages also tend to leave their clothes everywhere etc.

I can see that argument with children and pets (I had to do that with my pets anyway since they were my pets, which means, my responsibility, but for teenagers, no excuse. By that age, they should be cleaning up after themselves anyway, although granted, I was sloppy at a teen and was always fussed at by my parents to clean up. lol

well I stopped ironing many years lol. I have a neighbour who has no children-- not choice-- but circumstances-- However she makes staying at home a full time job. Her house is spotless-- but it lacks personality altogether.

At least it's clean! Wish I was more like that. I'm terribly lazy with housework, even though I grew up (meaning always done it since I was a kid) doing it. I've always had to cook, clean, do laundry, and take care of pets. I'm usually always surprised when I come across young people who don't even know how to do laundry and I think about how I've been doing it since about 9 years old (with a dryer and without). Never had to handwash (but I have), but meh.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

I am sure you are right here. Not all women Do want to have children and when you see the behaviour fo some badly disciplined children its enough to put you off for ever.

Pretty much, not all want to, or not all have the ability to, or it could be another situation entirely. They can't afford to have them. I know I couldn't when the urge was strong for me, and even now, I still couldn't afford it. It would've been irresponsible of me to bring a child into the world without having the financial means to take care of it, even if I could take care of it emotionally or even be able to go to the doctor because I had no insurance. For some women, who might give up their kids, finances might be the reason why.

I am sure that was my own mothers view-- which is why she got rid of me or I was taken away from her.

So you don't even know why? Isn't it harsh to make the judgment if you don't know the full story yourself? Is that really a fair judgment to make? Not everyone give up their children just because they don't like children.

[siokan]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

that seems like slave labour hours to me.
My japanese female friend worked terrible hours also for many years.

hahaha.....
Economic failure 20 years ago(It doesn't recover at all)
Financial crisis of 2007(subprime mortgage)
Even if two crisis is received, it might be a factor to keep a high economic level.

A lot of working things are said, "Death march(terrible hours)" in Japan.
When the woman also works in the employment environment of present Japan in case of this condition, the home is surely decay.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

I'm a feminist. Feminists did not fight so that women could work. They fought so that women had the freedom to choose whether they wanted to or not..

I agree with this. It's not about having or necessarily wanting to work it's about having no predjudice or discrimination if a women chooses to work. And that the choices of work available are not limited to some old fashioned view of gender specific roles. Where everyone has equal opportunity regardless of their sex based purely on their merits. It's also about having work environments and government support for working families that allows a balance between work and home life and doesn't assign gender specific roles in the home just like not in the workplace.
I do not think Japan is anywhere near this ideal, not even close...

Whether or not it's something that a majority of Japanese women would even want is a whole other question. Still the West wasn't much different to Japan in assigning gender specific roles in the home and in the workplace all that long ago. It takes government to be very proactive in changing attitudes for much change to occur. Of course there has to be votes in it for them and I don't see a huge groundswell of women in Japan demanding change currently so I don't see anything changing all that much anytime soon.