Womens rights in Japan or elsewhere

[MMM]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Well there we have it then. I don't agree with virtually anything you've said. It's an interesting opinion in this day and age I must say....

And fyi in Australia parental leave is a minimum of 12 months (some companies offer considerably more) of which 18 weeks is paid leave.

It is fine if you disagree, I am just asking you to explain why.

12 months of leave... that is great. Much longer than the US, I believe. Can a 12 month old take care of himself?

You still didn't answer my question, if both parents don't want to give up their careers to raise a family, what is the point of having children at all?

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by MMM

You still didn't answer my question, if both parents don't want to give up their careers to raise a family, what is the point of having children at all?

As much point as anyone who chooses to have children. The two things need not be mutually exclusive.
You have a very certain view of how to raise children. It's not a view shared by everyone.

My wife and I are not career driven people, we would never have moved to Japan if that was the case. But we are not quite rich enough yet to be able to live without working and work provides us with more than just money. It gives us something to do, provides challenges and social interaction. Anyway point is work is still very important to us for a number of reasons. Reasons that are important for our own happiness.

My wife took 6 months off work after our daughter was born. After that she went back to work and our daughter spends 5 days a week in day care. Now we were very lucky to get into an excellent facility that only has up to about 8 children. I believe our daughter has benefitted greatly from the time she spends there. The social interaction, the stimulus and the overall learning environment has meant she is very advanced for her age. In almost everything she started to be able to do things months ahead of what books and the internet tell us to expect. She enjoys her time there immensely. There's no crying at all when we drop her off. Anyway overall I believe her time in day care has been nothing but positive for her development. It's been good for her and good for us.

We still spend a lot of time with our daughter of course. There's the mornings getting her ready, having a shower, getting her dressed and having breakfast. And in the evenings we play with her, have dinner, read her books when putting her to bed. And we spend the weekends with her doing all sorts of things to keep her occupied, stimulated and happy.

At day care she is in a fun and stimulating environment and at home she gets all the love she could ever need. If I believed that day care wasn't beneficial for her then we would look at doing things differently. Later this year at least one of us will start working from home on a business we are starting. Even then though we would still look to put her in day care at least a few days a week because we believe it's great for her.

I am in no way convinced that having a parent at home full time is overly beneficial for children. It all depends on the parents. I believe a good day care facility coupled with good parenting can be an excellent environment for children. I don't believe there is only one way to raise successful, loved and happy children. There are many ways that it can be done successfully and in the people I know I see that all the time.

[dogsbody70]

HI GN-- I am glad that you have an excellent child care facilty close to you.


The problem is that not all child care IS GOOD as yours.

I have seen programmes here on TV where often over worked and harassed carers have charge of too many children at a time--Many carers are untrained. I believe there are schemes here in UK to assist parents towards child care. too many young single parents. Not sure if they get enough help or help in their further education.

I guess that times have changed with more facilities available if the parents can afford them.


So long as the place where the child is, does enhance and enlighten their time there-- Early socialising is a good thing provided the environment is positive.

Its when one sees programmes where the children are woken at unearthly times in order to be taken to child care in whatever form.

that programme wife swop or Super Nanny shows plenty of examples of bad parenting
.


It sounds as if you have it just right and of course if you have more children maybe you will do the same as now.

children are so precious especially in their early years when they are really moulded by their environment-- Loved or neglected.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by GoNative

As much point as anyone who chooses to have children. The two things need not be mutually exclusive.
You have a very certain view of how to raise children. It's not a view shared by everyone.

Just because my view is not shared by everyone doesn't mean it isn't valid. You are arguing that children don't need parents to grow up fine. I am not disagreeing with that. I am arguing that a child should be raised by her parents, and IDEALLY for the first formative years 24/7 by at least one or both of them. That is all.

This isn't rocket science, it is fundamental biology.

Originally Posted by GoNative

My wife and I are not career driven people, we would never have moved to Japan if that was the case. But we are not quite rich enough yet to be able to live without working and work provides us with more than just money. It gives us something to do, provides challenges and social interaction. Anyway point is work is still very important to us for a number of reasons. Reasons that are important for our own happiness.

When did I say if you both need to work that should be avoided?

If social interaction, challenges (outside of parenthood) and something do do (outside of parenthood) is a priority then that is great. But if a career is more more important than children, then why have children? Having a child is not a death sentence. You can still interact with people, and it provides many challenges and things to do.

Originally Posted by GoNative

My wife took 6 months off work after our daughter was born. After that she went back to work and our daughter spends 5 days a week in day care. Now we were very lucky to get into an excellent facility that only has up to about 8 children. I believe our daughter has benefitted greatly from the time she spends there. The social interaction, the stimulus and the overall learning environment has meant she is very advanced for her age. In almost everything she started to be able to do things months ahead of what books and the internet tell us to expect. She enjoys her time there immensely. There's no crying at all when we drop her off. Anyway overall I believe her time in day care has been nothing but positive for her development. It's been good for her and good for us.

Yes, you are lucky to have found a great facility. If only everyone was so lucky.

I don't want to make this personal, because I have no intention of insulting you, your family and your choices.

That being said, are those 8+ hours a day spent at daycare during a child's formative years best left in the hands of strangers, or the parent? What is the child missing by not being with the parent? What is the parent missing by not being with the child?

A generation ago parents knew their child's first words. Is that still true now?

Originally Posted by GoNative

We still spend a lot of time with our daughter of course. There's the mornings getting her ready, having a shower, getting her dressed and having breakfast. And in the evenings we play with her, have dinner, read her books when putting her to bed. And we spend the weekends with her doing all sorts of things to keep her occupied, stimulated and happy.

Again, I am not going to make this personal. This sounds great.

Originally Posted by GoNative

At day care she is in a fun and stimulating environment and at home she gets all the love she could ever need. If I believed that day care wasn't beneficial for her then we would look at doing things differently. Later this year at least one of us will start working from home on a business we are starting. Even then though we would still look to put her in day care at least a few days a week because we believe it's great for her.

You have my 100% support for creating a situation where you are spending more time at home with your child.

Originally Posted by GoNative

I am in no way convinced that having a parent at home full time is overly beneficial for children. It all depends on the parents. I believe a good day care facility coupled with good parenting can be an excellent environment for children. I don't believe there is only one way to raise successful, loved and happy children. There are many ways that it can be done successfully and in the people I know I see that all the time.

I never said there was one way, but I am just looking at the statistics and the odds. A child can be raised by wolves and end up a Nobel Prize winner, but I think no one would argue that is ideal.

I think it is hard to argue that a child not being with their parents is ideal, unless they are non-functional, drug addicts, etc. If the parents are good people, then the child would benefit by having a stay-home parent rather than spending his or her waking hours raised by strangers. Is this crazy? Sure alternate stimuli and social interaction is important. That doesn't mean the parent isn't there. Stay-at-home does not mean no social interaction.

Please don't see my ideas as an attack on you personally. I am just saying the IDEAL is a parent at home to raise the children, and I have yet to read an argument that counters that.

[dogsbody70]

"That being said, are those 8+ hours a day spent at daycare during a child's formative years best left in the hands of strangers, or the parent? What is the child missing by not being with the parent? What is the parent missing by not being with the child?

A generation ago parents knew their child's first words. Is that still true now?"

above quote from MM."

speaking for myself MM yes-- what do either of them miss?

I was fortunate enough to be there for both of mine when they were tiny and until school. they changed so much after entering school. I felt that I no longer knew them or had the same influence over them.

Socialising is GOOD other wise a child can grow up with inhibitions and not really able to mix well with others.


I just personally feel that I wanted to bring MY or OUR children up in the best way that I could--- I did not want others having too much influence on them.

after all I had them because I wanted them very much. Ours went to a part time play group when they were 2 and a half.


I am biased because of my own childhood being in environments where there was no real control -- just nurseries, Homes or foster care and those in charge could do what they wished with me with nobody to answer to.


I do not think children need to be smothered either. that is wrong.

When young babies go to some places how does a parent really know how that child is treated when they are not there.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

"That being said, are those 8+ hours a day spent at daycare during a child's formative years best left in the hands of strangers, or the parent? What is the child missing by not being with the parent? What is the parent missing by not being with the child?

A generation ago parents knew their child's first words. Is that still true now?"

above quote from MM."

speaking for myself MM yes-- what do either of them miss?

I was fortunate enough to be there for both of mine when they were tiny and until school. they changed so much after entering school. I felt that I no longer knew them or had the same influence over them.

Socialising is GOOD other wise a child can grow up with inhibitions and not really able to mix well with others.


I just personally feel that I wanted to bring MY or OUR children up in the best way that I could--- I did not want others having too much influence on them.

after all I had them because I wanted them very much. Ours went to a part time play group when they were 2 and a half.


I am biased because of my own childhood being in environments where there was no real control -- just nurseries, Homes or foster care and those in charge could do what they wished with me with nobody to answer to.


I do not think children need to be smothered either. that is wrong.

When young babies go to some places how does a parent really know how that child is treated when they are not there.

Yes, I agree with this. Since when has raising your own child been defined as "smothering"? This worries me.

I have nothing against people and couples that put their work and social lives as a priority. I just have an issue when they decide to be parents, but those priorities don't change. When you decide to become a parent, being a parent MUST be the priority.

If you job is more important than your child, then don't have children.

If your child is more important than your job, then quit your job.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by MMM

Please don't see my ideas as an attack on you personally. I am just saying the IDEAL is a parent at home to raise the children, and I have yet to read an argument that counters that.

It is the ideal you believe in. Not all of us agree it's necessarily the best way. I do not believe at all that a parent at home full time is necessarily better for the child. It all depends on if they are good parents. Many are not. I think you must live in a very different community than that which is familiar to me. Amongst the group of friends I have your views would be considered very old fashioned and somewhat narrow minded. As I say I don't know anyone from my friends in Australia who has raised their children in the way you believe in. All of them appear very well adjusted and happy children.

In terms of day care raising my child for 8 hours a day I can assure you that if I wasn't completely happy with the job they are doing then we would either change day care centres or look at other alternatives. As it is I don't think we could actually do any better job. The lady who runs the centre has been looking after kids for many, many years and frankly is far more experienced at it than we are. Our little girl is in excellent hands.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by MMM

If you job is more important than your child, then don't have children.

If your child is more important than your job, then quit your job.

It doesn't have to be only these extremes. Careers and families can both be very important to people and thankfully there are many ways to successfully pursue both at the same time. My wife and I never really considered that we would have to choose one over the other. The days when you had no choice are well and truly in the past. Welcome to the 21st century MMM!

Anyway just said goodnight to my little girl and she ran up gave me hug and kiss whilst saying "nigh nigh da da". This was after doing some drawing together, although she appeared to smear more crayon on her face than the paper!

Frankly I'm pretty confident that our choices have been and will continue to be very beneficial for our childs development. She is quite advanced for her age and a very happy child. What more could we hope for? If any sacrifices need to be made either in our jobs or anything for her benefit then they will be made. I just don't believe that one of us not working would be in her best interest currently as she gets so much from her experiences at day care. As I say we'd probably continue her there whether or not one of us wasn't working. I don't believe being home with a parent all day every day would be better for her.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Well there we have it then. I don't agree with virtually anything you've said. It's an interesting opinion in this day and age I must say....

And fyi in Australia parental leave is a minimum of 12 months (some companies offer considerably more) of which 18 weeks is paid leave.

Wow, paid maternity leave! What's that? lol I don't think I ever had a job that offered something like that.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by GoNative

MMM I know quite a few families where it was the husband who gave up career to care for the children and house. It was because the wife earned far more money and it didn't make any sense for her to stop working financially. If you have a family in which they want one parent to stay at home what's it matter whether it's the husband or wife? In a society where there is equality it doesn't matter at all. Sounds like that's not something you're overly familiar with?

As a child, I grew up with both my parents working, but, I always had their attention and time. My mother always worked the normal "9-5" type jobs and my father usually had the afternoon - night type jobs. During the day, my father stayed home to take care of me, and in the afternoons/evenings it was my mother. It was a good compromise for both because my mother is a day person and my father has always been a night person. In my earlier elementary school years, when I had school functions, my father was the one to go to them. Sometimes both would go, especially since my mother's job was close enough for her to do so. When we moved, though, it was too far for her, so dad went to my school functions.