BRANCH: WWII and Star Wars

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

1. Why not? If you don't want to play ball, I can't make you. I would say, however, it is very easy in 2011 to look back 60+ years and judge how decisions were made. I would ask you to look at it in the context of the time.

2. Again, think about it in the context of the time. You can decide that neither side was right or wrong or good or evil, but that's not the narrative of the time. Was Japan, Germany and Italy seen simply as other countries, or as evil by the Allied countries? It seems like you are are saying if the other side is evil, then it is justified, but it isn't fair to consider the Axis forces as evil. However, I am sure you know how they were viewed: as evil.

3. Why?

I've re-edited my post to show you why. Records show that there was no need for the dropping of the a-bombs. They knew that then as they knew now so this context of the time argument is bull.

I didn't understand your point in number 2. I have no problem classing the Axis as "evil". The problem I have is the idea that the allies were somwhow "good". But more importantly I find both designations irrelevant.

As for point 3. The storm troopers were agents of the Empire. Whether they had a choice in their employment is debatable too. Also the Death star was a military installation. It's destruction would be comparable to the sikning of the Yamato perhaps rather than the firebombing or nuking of a city.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I've re-edited my post to show you why. Records show that there was no need for the dropping of the a-bombs. They knew that then as they knew now so this context of the time argument is bull.

I didn't understand your point in number 2. I have no problem classing the Axis as "evil". The problem I have is the idea that the allies were somwhow "good". But more importantly I find both designations irrelevant.

As for point 3. The storm troopers were agents of the Empire. Whether they had a choice in their employment is debatable too. Also the Death star was a military installation. It's destruction would be comparable to the sikning of the Yamato perhaps rather than the firebombing or nuking of a city.

I don't completely disagree with what you are saying, but I thought your introduction of Star Wars into the conversation was interesting and wanted to explore it a bit. I appreciate your indulgence.

If there truly was no good reason to drop the A-bombs, then it is hard to say it is justified.

If the Axis was evil then what were the Allies? What are those that fight against and fight to destroy evil?

You can say storm troopers were agents of the Empire, whether they chose that role or not, but weren't the citizens of Japan agents of the Emperor in much the same way? They were born into their roles and not given a choice? Were they not fed the same sort of information, that their emperor was a deity, and should be followed to the death?

I understand we are comparing a movie to actual history, but you are saying one is justified and one is not, and on at least a surface level I am looking at why.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I don't completely disagree with what you are saying, but I thought your introduction of Star Wars into the conversation was interesting and wanted to explore it a bit. I appreciate your indulgence.

If there truly was no good reason to drop the A-bombs, then it is hard to say it is justified.

As I said earlier, star wars is a movie where caricatures representing good go against caricatures representing evil in an epic battle accross the galaxy. I wasn't intending to introduce star wars into the conversation. Rather compare the narrative of the movie with the narratives of history that some in here are offering. Narratives I think are biased and not at all objective.

Originally Posted by MMM

If the Axis was evil then what were the Allies? What are those that fight against and fight to destroy evil?

The Allies were evil too. Made up of colonial European powers who were also brutal in much of Africa and Asia as well as the United States which was all willing to defend that status quo.

Originally Posted by MMM

You can say storm troopers were agents of the Empire, whether they chose that role or not, but weren't the citizens of Japan agents of the Emperor in much the same way? They were born into their roles and not given a choice? Were they not fed the same sort of information, that their emperor was a deity, and should be followed to the death?

I understand we are comparing a movie to actual history, but you are saying one is justified and one is not, and on at least a surface level I am looking at why.

The distinction is that the storm trooper is a soldier in the Imperial military. If you consider Japanese citizens as valid targets then by logic you must consider the people that died in the WTC towers valid too.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

As I said earlier, star wars is a movie where caricatures representing good go against caricatures representing evil in an epic battle accross the galaxy. I wasn't intending to introduce star wars into the conversation. Rather compare the narrative of the movie with the narratives of history that some in here are offering. Narratives I think are biased and not at all objective.

I already thanked you for indulging me, and I said I can't make you participate in this indulgence.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The Allies were evil too. Made up of colonial European powers who were also brutal in much of Africa and Asia as well as the United States which was all willing to defend that status quo.

That is an interesting perspective, and I think speaks to the innate evil of war itself.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The distinction is that the storm trooper is a soldier in the Imperial military. If you consider Japanese citizens as valid targets then by logic you must consider the people that died in the WTC towers valid too.

I don't think I can let you off the hook on this one.

Last things first, those that attacked the Twin Towers on 9/11 certainly saw all the people that they killed as valid targets.

However, I didn't say all Japanese were legitimate targets, only that they didn't have the choice to not be Japanese, just as storm troopers didn't have the choice not to be storm troopers. That doesn't make the Japanese guilty, but just makes the storm troopers more innocent.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I don't think I can let you off the hook on this one.

Last things first, those that attacked the Twin Towers on 9/11 certainly saw all the people that they killed as valid targets.

However, I didn't say all Japanese were legitimate targets, only that they didn't have the choice to not be Japanese, just as storm troopers didn't have the choice not to be storm troopers. That doesn't make the Japanese guilty, but just makes the storm troopers more innocent.

Well then I suppose I'm saying that the storm troopers were legitimate targets because they were military.

Also.. I think you are guilty of spinning the star wars movies just a little bit. The clones of Jango Fett were not mindless drones.. like say the Borg. Sure they might be "innocent" if you consider their lack of choice in the matter but remember.. they committed terrible acts and were self conscious.

Furthermore.. if they were like the Borg and mindless drones then you could attempt to justify their deaths that way.

I'll also add that it's debatable whether all the stormtroopers were clones. The protagonist in the game Dark Forces was once a storm trooper who became disillusioned with the Empire and he was recruited into the Imperial Academy. This series is considered canon.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Well then I suppose I'm saying that the storm troopers were legitimate targets because they were military.

I am not saying they weren't military, I am saying the storm troopers didn't have a choice not to be military, therefore they are more innocent, than, say leaders like Palpatine and Tarkin.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Also.. I think you are guilty of spinning the star wars movies just a little bit. The clones of Jango Fett were not mindless drones.. like say the Borg. Sure they might be "innocent" if you consider their lack of choice in the matter but remember.. they committed terrible acts and were self conscious.

Sure storm troopers committed terrible acts, but not all of them. And did you ever see a storm trooper defect? Did you ever see one decline orders? This was the only existence they were aware of and conscious of? Do you think they got both sides of the story on Alderaan and the Rebel Alliance?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Furthermore.. if they were like the Borg and mindless drones then you could attempt to justify their deaths that way.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that, like much of the world at the time of WWII, they were fed propaganda and worked off of that.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I'll also add that it's debatable whether all the stormtroopers were clones. The protagonist in the game Dark Forces was once a storm trooper and he was recruited into the Imperial Academy. This series is considered canon.

And you accuse me of spinning? Let's go by the canon that was established in Episodes 1, 2, and 3, that may change canon from non-movie titles.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am not saying they weren't military, I am saying the storm troopers didn't have a choice not to be military, therefore they are more innocent, than, say leaders like Palpatine and Tarkin.

I fail to see the logic. You're presuming their innocence because they had no choice. I'm NOT presuming their guilt just saying that as military they were legitimate targets

Originally Posted by MMM

Sure storm troopers committed terrible acts, but not all of them. And did you ever see a storm trooper defect? Did you ever see one decline orders? This was the only existence they were aware of and conscious of? Do you think they got both sides of the story on Alderaan and the Rebel Alliance?

You're taking this way too seriously. Star Wars is a work of fiction. Whatever is presented in the movies or considered lore via the many books and video games considered canon is the way it was as was intended by George Lucas and the various minds that helped build this fictional universe. You can't just make up conspiracies.

Originally Posted by MMM

I wouldn't say that. I would say that, like much of the world at the time of WWII, they were fed propaganda and worked off of that.

I have no problem with that. Being subject to propaganda is not an excuse for committing atrocities though and does not make you innocent by default.

Originally Posted by MMM

And you accuse me of spinning? Let's go by the canon that was established in Episodes 1, 2, and 3, that may change canon from non-movie titles.

If it's considered canon by Lucas then what's the problem?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I fail to see the logic. You're presuming their innocence because they had no choice. I'm NOT presuming their guilt just saying that as military they were legitimate targets

I am saying it is a sort of unique situation because they had not choice to be military or not, so that gives them another layer of innocence that some militants would not have who joined a cause by choice.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You're taking this way too seriously.

You can't tell me I am taking it too seriously when you respond to every point with the same level of detail that I do.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Star Wars is a work of fiction. Whatever is presented in the movies or considered lore via the many books and video games considered canon is the way it was as was intended by George Lucas and the various minds that helped build this fictional universe. You can't just make up conspiracies.

I am not making up conspiracies. However, canon shouldn't be contradictory.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I have no problem with that. Being subject to propaganda is not an excuse for committing atrocities though and does not make you innocent by default.

When did I say anyone was innocent by default? I am saying they were using the information that was given to them at the time.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

If it's considered canon by Lucas then what's the problem?

It contradicts itself.

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

The point is: Had the Americans citizens known what it was like to be bombed as happened elsewhere.


Pearl Harbour was an easy target-- but were towns cities etc ever actually bombed? America woke up when the twin towers were attacked. that has led to invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Bush was too eager to kill the terrorists. Brought UK into it against advice from the UN. we were told a pack of lies re WMD's. Many Brits did Not wish to go to war in Iraq or Afghanistan.

surely the question was: why was there an attack on twin towers? Obviously the attackers were not too happy with American Politics So many innocent lives were lost that day and SINCE------- with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Maybe this should go on another thread.


I still cannot fathom why you are using star wars as an example on this subject.

Are you saying the American forces would have acted differently if America had been bombed by A-bombs on American soil before dropping the A-bombs?

Who knows? No one can answer that question.

Knowing what we know now, would America have made the same choice to drop the A-bombs on Japan?

Who knows? No one can answer that question.

This thread isn't about Iraq and Afghanistan, so I am not going to go there here.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am saying it is a sort of unique situation because they had not choice to be military or not, so that gives them another layer of innocence that some militants would not have who joined a cause by choice.

Fine.. I still maintain they are legitimate targets via the fact that they are military.

Originally Posted by MMM

You can't tell me I am taking it too seriously when you respond to every point with the same level of detail that I do.

I am not making up conspiracies. However, canon shouldn't be contradictory.

Yeah but when I do it I have specific scenes or facts from the Star Wars universe in mind. You can't just imply a conspiracy. Whether they had the full story on Alderaan or not etc. is irrelevant. All you need to know is that they were the good guys and the empire was the bad guys. That was all the writers intended and that is the problem with looking at history in this way that I was getting to originally.

Originally Posted by MMM

When did I say anyone was innocent by default? I am saying they were using the information that was given to them at the time.

I don't even know where you're going with this anymore. Bottom line.. I can justify the attack on the death star. You can't justify the bombing of Hiroshima in light of the facts I've presented here.

Originally Posted by MMM

It contradicts itself.

No it doesn't. I just assumed that the Empire recruited as well as used clones. The galaxy is a pretty big place after all.

[Ryzorian]

The Death star was a self contained city with over a million people on board. Yes, it was a death machine but it also had large numbers of civilians on board who ran day to day functions. The point is simple..you have to kill the civilians if you want to stop the evil death star from killing another planet. Those civilians chose to side with Palpatine and his storm trooper brigades so they aren't completely innocent.

The same is true in any city, civilians run basic operations of a country, they are also the foundation of industry wich builds the tanks, bombers, ships, bullets and guns of the military, they also provide the raw resource for future troops. They are as much a part of "total war" as any thing on the primary battle field.

If a nation went to war with the US, primary targets would have to include major cities because those are cites of manaerfactureing. Detroit, Silicon Vally, Dallas, Miami...New York just to name a few. They are important stratigic locations because of what they provide. Hell, my own town of 30,000 is a old cold war Nuke target because we have a major weapons depot right next to us. The plants there made all sorts of tank rounds and asorted missle parts..includeing nukes and the workers who made them, were housed in my town.

War crimes to me have always kinda been a joke. War is about winning and looseing. Just like a bar fight, their aint no rules, this isn't a boxng match it's a life or death struggle of one national identity against another. Sure people have tried to make it "humane" with geneva conventions and whatever, but really that's stupid...when it comes to brass tacks, nobody is going to follow that anyway, not if it means thier country looses because of them.