BRANCH: WWII and Star Wars

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

The Death star was a self contained city with over a million people on board. Yes, it was a death machine but it also had large numbers of civilians on board who ran day to day functions. The point is simple..you have to kill the civilians if you want to stop the evil death star from killing another planet. Those civilians chose to side with Palpatine and his storm trooper brigades so they aren't completely innocent.

The same is true in any city, civilians run basic operations of a country, they are also the foundation of industry wich builds the tanks, bombers, ships, bullets and guns of the military, they also provide the raw resource for future troops. They are as much a part of "total war" as any thing on the primary battle field.

If a nation went to war with the US, primary targets would have to include major cities because those are cites of manaerfactureing. Detroit, Silicon Vally, Dallas, Miami...New York just to name a few. They are important stratigic locations because of what they provide. Hell, my own town of 30,000 is a old cold war Nuke target because we have a major weapons depot right next to us. The plants there made all sorts of tank rounds and asorted missle parts..includeing nukes and the workers who made them, were housed in my town.

War crimes to me have always kinda been a joke. War is about winning and looseing. Just like a bar fight, their aint no rules, this isn't a boxng match it's a life or death struggle of one national identity against another. Sure people have tried to make it "humane" with geneva conventions and whatever, but really that's stupid...when it comes to brass tacks, nobody is going to follow that anyway, not if it means thier country looses because of them.

If you're going to be entirely consistent then you have to believe that the WTC victims were legitimate targets as were the victims in Pearl Harbour, the raids in Britain as well as the holocaust.

I disagree with that... but if indeed you do agree with the above in the name of consistency then the only high ground you can claim is that you have the bigger stick because you've effectively done away with any chance to take a moral one. (If you don't agree with the above then I'm going to accuse you of extreme nationalistic sentiments for not being consistent)

That's the high ground I'm taking over you and all you apologists for the dropping of the atomic bombs.

All you're saying is "might makes right".

PS- Nowhere is it mentioned that the death star contained civilians. Stop making shit up.

[MMM]

Since service onboard the Death Star was a long-term affair, the station maintained a number of civilian amenities to make the time aboard a deep space station more comfortable. Parks, shopping centers, recreation areas, and taverns such as the Hard Heart Cantina could be found in the general sectors of the station.[4]

Death Star - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

Since service onboard the Death Star was a long-term affair, the station maintained a number of civilian amenities to make the time aboard a deep space station more comfortable. Parks, shopping centers, recreation areas, and taverns such as the Hard Heart Cantina could be found in the general sectors of the station.[4]

Death Star - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

lol... Not Canon I'm afraid. Not to mention that the article is regarded as not sourced properly.

The source that it linked to was a game called Death Star designer. Sounds like a sim city in space.

Death Star Designer - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

[Ronin4hire]

By the way MMM.. I don't know why you're trying so hard to trip me up over my use of Star wars to describe the historical narrative that many people tend to believe regarding WW2.

If it's just in good fun concerning the Star wars universe then fine.. I don't mind playing. A discussion into the morality of the acts committed by the rebel alliance would be somethig fun to take part in actually. But I'd appreciate it if you made it a branch thread where it can be discussed seperately as guys like Ryozorian are taking my comments and running in all sorts of directions with them as they try and relate it back to the main topic.

Again.. I only brought up star wars to describe the way in which the Germans and Japanese became caricatures of evil and the Allies caricatures of good.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

lol... Not Canon I'm afraid. Not to mention that the article is regarded as not sourced properly.

The source that it linked to was a game called Death Star designer. Sounds like a sim city in space.

Death Star Designer - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

Death Star Designer was a promotional game for Star Wars: Lethal Alliance video game, which is considered canon, if you want to get technical.

[Ryzorian]

Acctually, there is a star wars book about said cantinea out..those books are considered "canon". Just have to check the basic scematics in the Star wars D20 system anyway...Death Star was huge, with over 1 million folks onboard.

As to the Towers, it was a legit target in the sense of it being a bastion of our economic system. The issue is that I believe it was an unprovoked attack, IE..some dude walks by you and cold cocks you across the nose. Maybe they had thier reasons, that's fine. We will see to it that it's marked on thier tombstone "They had their reasons".

War is hell, it's in everyone abject interest to make sure hell is brought apon the enemy so they realise just what kind of hell they have brought apon themselves and thier families. The horrors of war, the enemy must be brought to witness on the horrors they inflict on themselves, with thier own actions.

That's partly why those bombs were droped, to show the emperor, just what his war has wrought his own country. That's why he surrendered, the cost was too high for him to bear. For him, it was better to bear the "Unenbearlable" aspect of defeat, than the loss of an entire nation.

[termogard]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

The Death star was a self contained city with over a million people on board. Yes, it was a death machine but it also had large numbers of civilians on board who ran day to day functions.

Recalling the movie, the Death Star was a combat space station with a skilled military personnel onboard. They wore imperial uniform and served various systems and weaponry.
For instance, you can establish various caffe, bars and shops inside an aircraft carrier, but she will be still a warship, not a civilian sea liner.

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

The same is true in any city, civilians run basic operations of a country, they are also the foundation of industry wich builds the tanks, bombers, ships, bullets and guns of the military, they also provide the raw resource for future troops. They are as much a part of "total war" as any thing on the primary battle field.

It's a very dangerous concept and a good justification for any terrorist group. Their leader could tell something like :
"My relatives were killed of american bombs years ago. Here is an american tourist that came to some foreign country. Originally, he lives in a certain american state. The known military plant which builds the bombers also located in that state. Therefore, a tourist is linked to the production of the plant and represents an enemy himself. I have a holy right to kill him"

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

If a nation went to war with the US, primary targets would have to include major cities because those are cites of manaerfactureing. Detroit, Silicon Vally, Dallas, Miami...New York just to name a few. They are important stratigic locations because of what they provide. Hell, my own town of 30,000 is a old cold war Nuke target because we have a major weapons depot right next to us. The plants there made all sorts of tank rounds and asorted missle parts..includeing nukes and the workers who made them, were housed in my town.

During Cold War, Soviets just fully accepted an original American conception of a "total war". Soviet leaders learned lessons of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well, as learned classified information from Operation Dropshot, provided by Soviet intelligence.

quote :

Operation Dropshot was the United States Department of Defense code-name for a contingency plan for a possible nuclear and conventional war with the Soviet Union and its allies in order to counter the anticipated Soviet takeover of Western Europe, the Near East and parts of Eastern Asia expected to start around 1957. The plan was prepared in 1949 during the early stages of the Cold War and declassified in 1977. Although the scenario did make use of nuclear weapons, they were not expected to play a decisive role.

At the time the US nuclear arsenal was limited in size, based mostly in the United States, and depended on bombers to be delivered. Dropshot included mission profiles that would use 300 nuclear bombs and 29,000 high-explosive bombs on 200 targets in 100 cities and towns to wipe out 85% of the Soviet Union's industrial potential at a single stroke. Between 75 and 100 of the 300 nuclear weapons would be used to destroy Soviet combat aircraft on the ground.

Wiki

That's why many US cities and town were primary targets for the Soviet ICBMs.

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

War crimes to me have always kinda been a joke. War is about winning and looseing. Just like a bar fight, their aint no rules, this isn't a boxng match it's a life or death struggle of one national identity against another. Sure people have tried to make it "humane" with geneva conventions and whatever, but really that's stupid...when it comes to brass tacks, nobody is going to follow that anyway, not if it means thier country looses because of them.

When you are above Geneva conventions and other "stupid jokes", someone considers passengers of US civil jets as legitimate targets for violent actions.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

Death Star Designer was a promotional game for Star Wars: Lethal Alliance video game, which is considered canon, if you want to get technical.

But Death Star Designer isn't canon. You can try and spin it any other way but the fact is that it isn't

[Ronin4hire]

Ryozorian if you want a scenario that would link the star wars universe and the dropping of the atomic bomb then picture post Return of the Jedi, the Empire starfleet is decimated over the remaining months and the Emperor has been hiding out on Coruscant looking for a way out of the war. The citizens of Coruscant have endured months of orbital bombing and the Alliance intelligence is saying that it's only a matter of time and that anti-matter bombs would not only be unnecessary but also a waste of life.

Alliance high command orders the bombing anyway.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

By the way MMM.. I don't know why you're trying so hard to trip me up over my use of Star wars to describe the historical narrative that many people tend to believe regarding WW2.

If it's just in good fun concerning the Star wars universe then fine.. I don't mind playing. A discussion into the morality of the acts committed by the rebel alliance would be somethig fun to take part in actually. But I'd appreciate it if you made it a branch thread where it can be discussed seperately as guys like Ryozorian are taking my comments and running in all sorts of directions with them as they try and relate it back to the main topic.

Again.. I only brought up star wars to describe the way in which the Germans and Japanese became caricatures of evil and the Allies caricatures of good.

I am not trying hard to do anything, I am just exploring an idea, and appreciate your indulgence.

I have separated this branch, by request, so we can talk the Star Wars aspect in regards to Japan and WWII without being accused of belittling serious issues by comparing it to a sci-fi movie series.