BRANCH: WWII and Star Wars

[JasonTakeshi]

Originally Posted by MMM

I was born long enough ago that I saw Star Wars in the theater in 1977 (and 1978) several times as a kid.

What did I say that was freak-ish?

Do you find the term "freak" offensive?

I used it as a compliment. Means that you know more than the average joe.

May the Force be with you.

[Ryzorian]

Droids cannot make technical eqiupment such as Heavy Turbo lasers, plasma coils, shield generators, or tractor beams. You need civilian engineers for that. There are several civilian companies that contracted with the empirial government. You think Star Destroyers grew on trees? How bout Imperial walkers? Honestly, if you have an empire based on exspansion, with constant loss of equipment, you would have a booming economy back on Courisant.

Slaves for manual labor means they were out digging in mines, NOT BUILDING war machines of advanced technology. Slaves would be used in tasks that required little supervision and less thinking.


The Jedi were on the republics side because they were Jedi knights of the republic. The clone troopers were trained to obey jedi knights. Yes, order 66 had them attack jedi..but remeber..when Vader led the 501st against the Jedi temple...He was a Jedi general putting down a jedi rebellion, the troopers never did anything outside thier training.

Also, laying waste to a planet with Star Destroyers pretty much destroys any chance of life, thus it destroys the planet in the sense of it being "Class M" anymore. Turn it into a mineing facility where the slaves can dig I suppose. The DS blowing everything to asteroids was a waste of a good resources.

Yes, Star trek was wishy washy when it came to politics, and it bit them on the ass constantly. Specially with the Jem Hadar and the shapeshifter war. I prefer Klingons. Realistically though, humans would find less advanced races and just shove them over like any other group of "Indians". Put them on some "reservation moon", while we strip mined thier planet bare. Humans would have more in common with the Borg than anything.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The onus isn't on me to prove you wrong. It's on you to prove yourself right. This is just basic logic. (It's like the argument of God. To say he exists because I can't prove his non-existence is illogical)

Considering there is no canonical source that supports any of your theories... I automatically win BUT I'm willing to listen to reason.

Therefore the only way we can discuss the possibility of such a situation is via reason. My reasoning is based on how things work in the Star Wars universe. The role of droids and slaves and the nature of the Death Star as a Starship of high strategic importance.

You and Ryozorian base your conclusions that stem from real world assumptions. All you've done is simply attempt to transplant the nature of our reality onto the star wars one. Which would otherwise be fine had it not neglected the technological and political "realities" of the star wars universe.



The Republic had the Jedi on their side, not the seperatists.

The Jedi order didn't exist during the Empire. (Most were hunted down and killed but some survived)

The reason escapes me as to why they would choose a side in that conflict. (My guess is just bad writing though)

The seperatists just wanted independence. Granted they were lead by the trade federation... but I don't see the problem in granting political independence to worlds that wanted it.

I don't know much about the clone wars though.

I am not sure proving there were non-military personal on the Death Star is the same as proving the existence of God, but it is surely just as hard.

Knowing how the clones act from The Clone Wars movies and TV series, we know they have the same needs as typical Mandalorians. Just because they are clones doesn't mean they don't have personalities and "human" needs.

Is it reasonable to think that those needs are satisfied by droids?

And on that topic, if droids have free will, can the be considered "slaves" as they don't choose their owner?

If we say we can't apply our real world logic to the Star Wars universe, then that will unravel any reason to have a conversation about it.

Regarding Jedi and the Republic... good point, my mistake.

The Clone Wars is a bit of a misnomer, as it was Republic Clones vs. Seperatist Droids, and I guess the war ended with Order 66, with the Clones basically switching over to the Seperatist / Empire.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by JasonTakeshi

Do you find the term "freak" offensive?

I used it as a compliment. Means that you know more than the average joe.

May the Force be with you.

Fair enough... it's the Internet, so I can never be sure.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am not sure proving there were non-military personal on the Death Star is the same as proving the existence of God, but it is surely just as hard.

Jeez MMM.. I was focusing on the likeness between the two arguments that's all.

Originally Posted by MMM

Knowing how the clones act from The Clone Wars movies and TV series, we know they have the same needs as typical Mandalorians. Just because they are clones doesn't mean they don't have personalities and "human" needs.

Is it reasonable to think that those needs are satisfied by droids?

Are you just ignoring everything I said? They likely rotated people in on tours of duty. I can't imagine it would be much different to serving out a tour on a ship today.

Originally Posted by MMM

And on that topic, if droids have free will, can the be considered "slaves" as they don't choose their owner?

Depends if the droids on the DS had free will.

Originally Posted by MMM

Regarding Jedi and the Republic... good point, my mistake.

The Clone Wars is a bit of a misnomer, as it was Republic Clones vs. Seperatist Droids, and I guess the war ended with Order 66, with the Clones basically switching over to the Seperatist / Empire.

I thought the Republic was the Empire.

The Seperatists were just pawns used by Palpatine in order to gain control. An external threat which justified the militarization of the Republic.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Droids cannot make technical eqiupment such as Heavy Turbo lasers, plasma coils, shield generators, or tractor beams. You need civilian engineers for that. There are several civilian companies that contracted with the empirial government. You think Star Destroyers grew on trees? How bout Imperial walkers? Honestly, if you have an empire based on exspansion, with constant loss of equipment, you would have a booming economy back on Courisant.

Slaves for manual labor means they were out digging in mines, NOT BUILDING war machines of advanced technology. Slaves would be used in tasks that required little supervision and less thinking.

Dude. Has it occured to you that the parts were built elsewhere and assembled in one place by military engineers, droid and slave labour?

All the components were likely built planetside somewhere and transported to the assembly point for military technicians to take over.

Not only do you keep your project a secret in this way.. you can mask the construction of the death star by passing off the components as parts of something completely different.

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Also, laying waste to a planet with Star Destroyers pretty much destroys any chance of life, thus it destroys the planet in the sense of it being "Class M" anymore. Turn it into a mineing facility where the slaves can dig I suppose. The DS blowing everything to asteroids was a waste of a good resources.

Yeah but Star Destroyers are hardly a weapon of terror. The DS was built intending to crush all remaining resistance to the Empire. Star Destroyers can be brought down by other capital ships and fighters.

The original DS would have been invincible had the Alliance not got a hold of the schematics and the second DS would have been invincible had it been completed.

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Yes, Star trek was wishy washy when it came to politics, and it bit them on the ass constantly. Specially with the Jem Hadar and the shapeshifter war. I prefer Klingons. Realistically though, humans would find less advanced races and just shove them over like any other group of "Indians". Put them on some "reservation moon", while we strip mined thier planet bare. Humans would have more in common with the Borg than anything.

What do you mean "realistically".

The Star Trek future is essentially a utopian one (some would almost say socialist) so the parameters of reality are set by the people writing it.

While Star Wars is more akin to fantasy, Star Trek is actually much cleverer and has a lot more social commentary.

In the episodes where "they got bit in the ass" by their principles.. the moral of the story was usually that those principles were just.

But it's no surprise that the theme was lost on you lol

[Ryzorian]

I'm Familer with the theme, it wasn't lost on me. Star trek tried to present socialsit type ideals as a Grand idea but mankind would pretty much ruin that because of who and what his is. History paints us in a very bloody brush.

I understand building the DS parts and haveing them assembled. You still wouldn't have slaves do that, and you would still need technical staff for repairs and maintenance. Plus all those civilians who built the spare parts on other planets, not to mention building all those Star Destroyer fleets. Technically those planets are all legit targets for the "resistance".

The Resistance could shoot down Star Destroyers sure..but it cost them more than the empire, because they didn't have the resources to maintain such large number's of ships. Tradeing ship for ship against someone with 100 times more capacity than you is a looseing battle.

A Star Destroyer can put out roughly 60 Horishima's a minute, that's the base firepower of 60 heavy turbo Lasers. ( They did a Kilo Jewel test at some school) A Super Star Destroyer at 12,000 meters, was several times the size of a Star Destroyer, wich was itself 1600 meters. Thus it could pump out a massive amout of damage very quickly.

That's why I personally think the DS was a waste of time. The emperor could have built 100 Star Destroyers with what he used to build those stupid DS's. It would take alot more effort for the resistance to try and take out those 100 Star Destroyers, than relying on some lucky shot for the DS.

[Kitam]

it was a crazy long wall of text.. i dont think i should start off talking this much so early.. I withdraw my comment

[Ryzorian]

It's why they had everyone fight in Star Wars. Haveing them sit around some table and "iron out thier differences" via some peace talk wouldn't make for a good movie. Well, cept maybe in Star Trek.