Do you think Japan's declining birth rate will cause it to increase immigration?

[Umihito]

Originally Posted by RealJames

the concept of preserving Japanese culture and heritage by reducing immigrants is nonsense,
most kids nowadays in Japan have no strong feelings towards Japan and are getting more and more westernized by the day. the place is rapidly losing it's cultural significance and they have almost all descended into cheap tourist traps and souvenir items.
yes, cultural heritage is more vibrant in Japan than in many other countries, I'm just saying it's in rapid decline, and that before long it'll be museum material

I'm sorta half and half with you on this one.
Maybe culture protection by reducing immigrants does sound silly, but it must work. When you have groups of foreigners, they make their little base in whichever city they're in. After that, that area will lose its culture because it's a bas for a certain group of people. Either by having children or by natives following their ways, their base and culture spread out until there is significant native culture loss. That's how I see it working anyway.

Remember when Japan was totally isolated before Perry came? They had no contact with anyone outside of Japan, and THAT made them keep their culture so different for so long. I also think it's part of the reason why Japanese are so shy to foreigners today. Now of course I'm not suggesting complete isolation again, but I think that immigrants definitely play a part in culture loss.

I definitely agree that kids are exposed to a lot of Western culture and there is a lot of conversion caused by that. But when you say that kids don't care about their traditions any more, I'm not so sure. With a lot of kids it just seems so natural for them to go through shrine etiquette or put out those little things that pray for rain (don't know what they're called). But I guess it is changing rapidly. All I can do is hope that it doesn't turn into just museum relics like you said.

Maybe what Nyororin said a few posts up from this is true, about them maturing back into liking their own culture. He/she (please forgive me, I'm not sure if Nyororin is a man or woman ) raised some good points about people who always find that the grass is greener back home when they try something different in the long term.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Umihito

Yeah, it's definitely not that Japanese people are xenophobic. They just want to keep their country to themselves, and I find that a perfectly good choice considering immigrant problems with other countries.

The West does the same. I don't know what GoNative is on about as this is not the definition of xenophobia (realjames had it right earlier I think).

For example it's not like Australia or the United Kingdom just lets anybody in.

The only difference is that Japans laws are much tighter.

I mean would the following statement be untrue?

Yeah, it's definitely not that Australian/English people are xenophobic. They just want to keep their country to themselves, and I find that a perfectly good choice considering immigrant problems with other countries.

[GoNative]

The main difference Ronin is Japan doesn't have any immigration policy as such. There is no annual intake of immigrants be they skilled, refugees or whatever. There is a very distinct difference between countries like the UK, Australia and Japan in that sense. Japan is I think the only developed nation in the world that does not have an official immigration policy in place. So it's ridiculous trying to say that Japan is essentially the same as the west in terms of immigration, it is not.

This from the Japan Times

Although the Democratic Party of Japan said in 2008, when it was the main opposition force, that it favored eventually bringing in 10 million foreign laborers, its 2009 platform for the Lower House election made no mention of the issue or any possible numbers of foreign laborers in the future.

Sakanaka noted the economic crisis of the past two years has dampened enthusiasm not only in Japan but around the world for expanded immigration, while adding that the country doesn't really have a choice, given its declining population.

"The only way for Japan to survive is to become part of this Pacific economic zone. America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are the leading immigration nations in the Pacific region, and Japan should use the opportunity presented by the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement to join these traditional immigration powers," he said.

So there is definitely awareness of the issue but as usual here actually getting change to occur seems to take an eternity...
I understand your ideas on environmental sustainability and that a smaller population wouldn't be a bad thing for this country but an immigration policy taking in a couple of hundred thousand foreign workers each year isn't going to stop the decline but it will help address the issue of the aging population which if nothing is done soon will cripple this country economically in the years to come.

And frankly saying something like 'They just want to keep their country to themselves' seems to me to be a very xenophobic attitude if not an exact definition.

[Ronin4hire]

Oh I completely agree that Japan needs a policy of some sort. Even if for the sake of some consistency and to let all the poor foreign residents in Japan know where they stand nor do I have a problem with the assessment you've presented.

I just don't think it can be automatically classed as xenophobia (although I'm sure that some people hold xenophobic views regarding the matter).

A point I tried to make by substituting Japan in for Australia or England in the sentence in question.

Yeah, it's definitely not that Australian/English people are xenophobic. They just want to keep their country to themselves, and I find that a perfectly good choice considering immigrant problems with other countries.

Basically, the only a way a country can exist is to keep their country to themselves.

[GoNative]

For the UK maybe you have a point but Australia is quite different in that it is a realtively new country and has only come into being through waves of immigration over the years. It too would have a declining population if not for immigration. There was certainly a period in Australia where it was very xenophobic (mostly due to the British population here) but after WWII that changed considerably and certainly after the Vietnam War it ended, at least officially, entirely. I don't even know if you could really define what it is to be Australian it is so multicultural these days.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

For the UK maybe you have a point but Australia is quite different in that it is a realtively new country and has only come into being through waves of immigration over the years. It too would have a declining population if not for immigration. There was certainly a period in Australia where it was very xenophobic (mostly due to the British population here) but after WWII that changed considerably and certainly after the Vietnam War it ended, at least officially, entirely. I don't even know if you could really define what it is to be Australian it is so multicultural these days.

Actually... legally, Australia and the UK have a similar definition as to what is an Australian (or a british person) as do other Western countries.

It would be equally as difficult to define what it is to be British as it is to be Australian. The only difference is that the dominant ethnie has had a longer history of dominance in one example than it does in the other.

My point is that it is not xenophobic for Australia and England to do this. The only reason you think that Japan is xenophobic for doing it is because you assume their motive to be xenophobic which I assume stems from the fact that Japanese law is really tight on this (which MIGHT be true to SOME extent). But the fact that they are doing it is not grounds for that.

[GoNative]

I didn't actually say Japan was xenophobic (although I believe it is) I was just commenting on what Umihito said. Australia and the UK have very generous intakes of refugees and structured imigration programs that do not discriminate on race. Japan doesn't. There is a huge difference. Japan isn't basically the same except just a bit stricter.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I didn't actually say Japan was xenophobic (although I believe it is) I was just commenting on what Umihito said. Australia and the UK have very generous intakes of refugees and structured imigration programs that do not discriminate on race. Japan doesn't. There is a huge difference. Japan isn't basically the same except just a bit stricter.

Japan's doesn't discriminate on race.

It discriminates according to geneology (whether your parents or grandparents are or were Japanese).

While you might think that equates discrimination according to race you should remember that this is not that different a policy that the UK and Australia implement. (A person can get an Australian or British citizenship if one of their parents or grandparents were Australian or British respectively)

The only difference is that the Japanese haven't implemented anything more than that.

[GoNative]

Attempt all you like to make out that Japan's policies on immigration are not that disimilar to the UK or Australia but you are wrong. There is a world of difference. I actually don't understand what point you are trying to make. I believe this country could benefit greatly from having a structured immigration intake similar to what the UK and Australia has. I also think it would be good if it took on some of the humanitarian responsibility that most developed nations have in taking in a few refugees. I believe the reluctance of the government here to implement such policies is hampered by the exnophobia found in the general populace (it's not good for votes). Xenphobia that I believe was fostered by the previous right wing government that ruled this country for what seemed like an eternity. There was a lot of hope that some changes might occur when a new government was finally elected but not much seems to have occurred thus far...

[Ryzorian]

A country needs a 2.1 birth rate to maintain it self, fall too far below that with out makeing up the difference somewhere and your country will collapse. This is going on in Europe right now, several nations there are 1.7 or lower and they are haveing a hard time maintaining thier standard of liveing.. The US Birthrate is around 2.1 and is the only western nation that has positive population growth, growth that's required to sustain the current standard of liveing.