I really need help from the fathers out there.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Well research shows that teaching abstinence actually increases the risk of unwanted pregnancy.

I believe that was abstinence only programs, that believe teaching about condoms actually promotes sex (which is silly), but this isn't really addressing the point being argued.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Suki

Look at you deviating from your original statement.

You said "A man agrees to have a baby with a woman the moment he puts his thing inside her", which means that -according to you- no man who isn't ready to be a father should ever have sex, until he feels he is ready and can deal with the responsabilities that may come with it.

This logic is bullshit, in my opinion. The only purpose of sex isn't to make babies, and you know that.

So what you are saying isn't much different from saying it's okay for people to die when doing extreme sports, such as mountain-climbing, because they know what the risks are before doing it, so they knew what was coming to them, and so it's fair. See my point?
People won't give up sex because of that, and yeah, it is very stupid to say people shouldn't have sex unless they're ready to become a parent. Because there's more to sex than breeding, and you seem to be old enough to have realized that by now.

I didn't deviate at all. A man engaging in sex should know the potential consequences if the woman gets pregnant. Would you not agree to that?

Biologically the purpose of sex is procreation. Why do you think it feels so good? Our species wants to continue to grow. That's fundamental biology. Individually we may not want a baby, but we are the only species that can procreate before we have the tools to actually take care of a baby.

Yes, people that engage in extreme sports engage in very risky behavior. This is a great example. If a family man is killed pumping gas into his tank by a random gunman, it is considered a tragedy. However if a family man dies because his chute didn't open base jumping off the Tower of Pisa, it is not tragic in the same way, and many would call him irresponsible.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

The catholics have their own rhythmn method- withdrawal.

Which is LESS effective than modern contraceptives. Sperm is often leaked in pre-ejaculate fluid, so pregnancies can occur even if the man withdraws before the point of actual ejaculation.

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Animals only have sex when they are ready to have progeny.They don't do it for FUN.

Not true. Several large primate species (of which we are closely related), including chimpanzees, have sex for pleasure. Many more frequently masturbate to the point of orgasm regardless of the availability of partners and over 500 species have been observed engaging in homosexual practices for relatively little logical reason other than apparently they prefer it. Other primate species engage in non-penetrative petting sessions. Non-procreative Sex is used as a social tool in some troop animals; to establish hierarchy and reduce stress. Certain species such as the monogamous prairie vole actually experience accumulative sexual pleasure with each successive mating; in effect, the more they have sex, the stronger the feeling, and so they actively seek mating even if their partner is not in season. Dolphins engage in a wide range of sexual practices which have little to do with procreation.

Sex may not have evolved for mere fun, but there's no reason to then discount it as a factor entirely.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I believe that was abstinence only programs, that believe teaching about condoms actually promotes sex (which is silly), but this isn't really addressing the point being argued.

Fair enough.

Look I don't disagree with you that sex carries a risk.

I disagree with you on the idea that this risk carries the sort of obligation you're imposing on the father in a world where abortion and adoption are viable options.

[dogsbody70]

ah well columbine you learn something new every day don't you.

this poem from Kahlil Gibran where he says children



On Children

AND a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, Speak to us of Children.

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's
longing for itself.

They come through you but not from
you,And though they are with you yet they
belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not
your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not
their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of to-
morrow, which you cannot visit, not even
in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek
not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries
with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path
of the infinite, and He bends you with His
might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand
be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Lifes Longing for itself?

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Fair enough.

Look I don't disagree with you that sex carries a risk.

I disagree with you on the idea that this risk carries the sort of obligation you're imposing on the father in a world where abortion and adoption are viable options.

Ronin you make it seem like such an easy option. Abortion or Adoption.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Ronin you make it seem like such an easy option. Abortion or Adoption.

I said they were viable. When weighing up the responsibility of caring for a child for the rest of your youth then there are no easy options.

[princessmarisa]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Ronin you make it seem like such an easy option. Abortion or Adoption.

All Ronin is saying is that if we allow abortion and adoption, then we should also allow the father the right to walk away before the child is born.

If you agree with abortion you can't not agree with the father being able to walk away. That is hypocritical, sexist and all manner of other unfair nasties we tend to fight against in the modern world.

If you don't agree with abortion or adoption and think that having sex means you carry the risk of a baby, and therefore have to accept the responsibly then you have to think that for both mother and father and force them both to keep it together. Not just let the mother have the say.


People can think as they will, but lets strive for a world without hypocrisy, discrimination, judgement and people contradicting themselves.

[Suki]

Originally Posted by MMM

I didn't deviate at all. A man engaging in sex should know the potential consequences if the woman gets pregnant. Would you not agree to that?

I agree fully. This isn't what we're discussing. Salvanas knew what might happen so he and his girlfriend used contraceptives, which failed them, and now they find themselves facing a situation they wanted to avoid by using contraceptives in the first place. They did nothing wrong, are you gonna tell them they deserve to be in this situation because they were aware of the risk and chose to have sex anyway? Cause that's pretty much what you said in your previous post.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Fair enough.

Look I don't disagree with you that sex carries a risk.

I disagree with you on the idea that this risk carries the sort of obligation you're imposing on the father in a world where abortion and adoption are viable options.

Then by all means, TALK to your partner about what she would do if she does happen to get pregnant, that way you can gauge that risk beforehand.