Re Abortions

[RobinMask]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

THE THING!!!!once upon a time You were a THING in your mothers womb.

I don't just aim this at you, - but to anyone who's lost a child - but I wonder if perhaps the loss of a young child in the immediate family does influence a person's feelings on the matter of abortion? Its just I think anyone who has lost a child knows how devestating and traumatising it can be, and its impossible for those who haven't endured it to perhaps fully comprehend its impact . . . I wonder if the loss of a child leads to more of a sensitivity for life, pregnancy and the child itself.

I guess what I mean is this: would your opinion on abortion be the same if you hadn't lost a child? It just seems that when someone has lost a child it seems incomprehensible for anyone else to willingly choose to end its life, I can see why it'd perhaps be so upsetting or infuriating. So perhaps this biases one to the issue? That one can't seperate the idea of 'terminating a pregnancy' with that feeling of grief and pain.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

No no no no. It's opinion. There is no solid facts as to what constitutes as life, so this point is not arguable. You can tell her she's wrong and whatever else you want to say, but she's not. It's an opinion based on your own feelings and it can't be wrong.



Firstly, how do you know I haven't? (I haven't, but you wouldn't have known that before now.)

Secondly, I am because I'm not an idiot. And yes, it would be easy for me, and I know it. I have no emotional attachment to what I believe is a collection of cells. I have no reason to get upset over it, or find this decision difficult. I'm sure abortion is an easy choice for at least some women, even though it would be a small minority.

why pretend it is not alive when it patently IS. Otherwise it would have died naturally inside the womb and been aborted.

I think those who try to pretend a developing foetus and baby is not alive is kidding themselves because it suits them to believe that.

It has to be alive to continue developing. nothing to do with opinions at all.

It is not some substance that has no life about it it is growing and changing constantly. No way could that happen if it was DEAD

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

I don't just aim this at you, - but to anyone who's lost a child - but I wonder if perhaps the loss of a young child in the immediate family does influence a person's feelings on the matter of abortion? Its just I think anyone who has lost a child knows how devestating and traumatising it can be, and its impossible for those who haven't endured it to perhaps fully comprehend its impact . . . I wonder if the loss of a child leads to more of a sensitivity for life, pregnancy and the child itself.

I guess what I mean is this: would your opinion on abortion be the same if you hadn't lost a child? It just seems that when someone has lost a child it seems incomprehensible for anyone else to willingly choose to end its life, I can see why it'd perhaps be so upsetting or infuriating. So perhaps this biases one to the issue? That one can't seperate the idea of 'terminating a pregnancy' with that feeling of grief and pain.

it is disgusting to call a living child within the womb just a THING and it has nothing at all to do with whether i have lost a child or not.

It is disgraceful to refer to something so amazing and miraculous as simply A THING or a bunch of cells/

we all were those once-- do we like to think that we were thought of as a THING.

I believe it is all so convenient for those who believe that when they conceive a child that is is not at all special or important but just a damned nuisance of a THING.

NO it is totally wrong.

we all were in a womb-- so maybe we were just things. so many attitudes here are SHOCKING.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

I think it is a 'thing' until it is alive. At 12 weeks, it's not alive.

You can think it's alive if you want, just accept that I DON'T.


Also. I have a phobia. Maybe this is not rational to you but that's how I feel about it. I feel it's a thing that I wouldn't want there, because I have a phobia of it.

Well you think what youlike MISS MISA. You are wrong.

as you have such a phobia about something that should be Natural-- you had better make sure that you never do conceive


I am sure you will be careful but I still disagree about when a baby is ALIVE.

however everyone else think what suits them. creation and birth is miraculous.

[NanteNa]

dogsbody70 - PLEASE stop double-posting. You're flooding the thread. Just use the 'edit' button. Super easy and much more space-saving than you posting entry after entry.. ^^v Thanks


ALSO.. I'd like to add that I agree with MissMisa. I'm, however, convinced that it's not actually "alive" to the extent where it's an actual PERSON until it's been born. Until it's OUTSIDE of the momma's belly - it's not alive to me.

[pumpum]

Ok serious point...

There seems to be a lot of debate on wether the foetus is alive or not at the time of abortion and then a moral fall out depending on which side you believe. However i would like to say that even if the foetus is alive SO WHAT? i dont see it as such a great crime to abort it, especially if it saves it from a life of shit or the like?

if you detach yourself from the emotion, you see a clearer picture - look at nature when for example lions eat the new born of another male before breeding etc. - natures 100 times more cruel and we are in the end a part of that nature.

Humans kill shit everyday!

[evanny]

come on.
yes. foetus is alive like all cells and their combinations.
still - it's nothing more than an empty shell. it has no experience, no ideas, no concept of life. even Robins beloved Dolphins are more sophisticated and when it comes to choosing - i say that something that has actually experienced the world, has seen it...well then it has more right to stay in it than something that hasn't.

dogsbody. ahh..your BS about every child is special. well if everyone is special then it means everyone is the same!
and human life has become long since expendable. just take a look at this clock: World Clock
year just started and already 8 million have been born. child born isn't any wonder any more (in a generalisation to the world, families think different, i hope so)
world just might be a better place if there weren't so many unwanted children born and actually had more abortions.

P.S look. there is even a number for abortions. this year - 2.6 million. imagine now 2.6 million unwanted children walking around...would it make you happy? or even anyone?

i say - first figure out how to take care of those who are already born, then worry about the upcoming.

[Nyororin]

My thought on the whole alive or not debate...

Alive is not necessarily a life. There is a difference between the two terms, and I am taking the liberty of interpreting the people saying that a fetus is "not alive" as saying that it is not "a life".

A life is something that is capable of living independently (on a physical level - as in with a functional internal system allowing it to survive.)

My leg is alive. My hand is alive. If I scrape myself on something, I lose an incredible number of living cells. There is no doubt that those things are living. But they are not "life". They are entirely dependent upon my body functioning properly to survive. No amount of support could keep them living - or bring them to a point where they could live without me - should they be removed from my body. As alive as they may be, I could never take my leg and say that it is a life all its own.

I believe that most people will agree with me on this.

Now - move on to the components involved in reproduction.

The thousands of "egg" cells women carry in their bodies, and the countless sperm cells continually produced by men are all living cells. But they are not individual lives. They are nothing more than living cells at that point. If they were each a life - every month a woman would be letting a person die... Every time a man ejaculated, he would be letting millions of people die even if he were to get someone pregnant.

Putting these two living (but not independent life) cells together makes a new type of cell. The new cell isn`t yet something that could be considered a life, as there is no possible way for it to remain in a living state without the body keeping it that way... Just like the egg and sperm cells it was formed by. It has the potential to become a life, but that is about all that makes it different from a toe. Cut off from the body, neither has any chance whatsoever of surviving.

As to when be developing fetus ceases to be simply alive and becomes a life... That is a huge debate. But scientifically, until there is a functioning system in place to sustain the state of living... Alive it is, but "life" it is not.
This is generally interpreted as somewhere around 24 weeks, as that is the edge of viability.

It is often cited that abortion is legal up until 24 weeks... But I don`t believe that most (any?) country allows elective abortions after 12 or so weeks. Abortion after that point is done for medical reasons, usually a risk to the mother`s life. After 24 weeks, the same sort of thing can happen - ie. end the pregnancy to save the life of the mother - but the fetus is legally recognized as an individual, and efforts must be made to save that life along with that of the mother.

The real issue is that the line between being alive and being a life is very fuzzy and open for interpretation. Legally, it tends to be 24 weeks, which is why the "natural" death of a baby in the womb before 24 weeks is a miscarriage, and after is a still birth.

[Ryzorian]

Missmisa; I actually understand that phobia idea. It may be sub concious aspect of realizeing that the featus, wether you think it's alive at that point or not, is still seperate from you. That may creep you out sub conciously.

It is something folks need to understand though, a featus is a seperate entity from the mother, that's why you have a womb in the first place. It seperates the two because if the blood of either mixed they could become hostile to each other. ( It's called the RH factor)

I'm not going to try and tell anyone what to believe here, cause that's useually wasted time anyway. I will point out that we have to be careful culturally about these sorts of things, it becomes a slippery slope when life as a whole looses it's value.

Princess; The atempted murder aspect doesn't work as a arguement in this case because murder itself is against the law, where as abortion isn't. I suppose you could debate when does an abortion become an atempted murder.

There is another tack to consider, some make the case that it's the woman's body and there fore her right to do what she wants. This sets up the idea that the unborn child is her property, as I recall we had an issue with people being property before. So if that's the case, when does the unborn child become it's own owner? At birth? 2? 12? 18? That was even a law I believe in centuries past, where children really were considered property of the parents until a certain age.

Gonative; I debated someone at work about this today and I kinda think his conclusion was correct, you can't legislate a moral code, the culture itself has to have such structures built in as a framework allready. So maybe it should be "legal" so that it stays safe but perhaps the culture should attach a stigma to it. Like smokeing around children or driveing drunk. While it may be legal, it should be seen as something people don't consider as a first choice.

My concern is that far too often it's seen as a convience and as a convience it begins creating a culture of disreguard.

Pumpum, if you consider Humans as nothing more than animals I can concede that point. However, even humanist's who don't believe in God at all, try to attach a greater aspect to humanity than just "Monkey learned to walk upright, yippy skippy"

Male lions kill newborns cause they want the females to go into heat so they can inpregnate her with their cubs. They don't want to waste time raiseing the last kings brat. While humans do act that way sometimes, particularly royalty. Most of us are above that.

[dogsbody70]

[quote=NanteNa;847714]dogsbody70 - PLEASE stop double-posting. You're flooding the thread. Just use the 'edit' button. Super easy and much more space-saving than you posting entry after entry.. ^^v Thanks

you have a cheek telling me what I should be doing.

I usually am responding to others messages---