China

[pumpum]

If a Chinese citizen did not go against their government or cause any kind of subversion - then could that citizen become rich through entrepreneurship?, could they get a flat screen tv, nice car etc? and more importantly would that apply in the same way to any other citizen who also did not go against their government?

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by pumpum

If a Chinese citizen did not go against their government or cause any kind of subversion - then could that citizen become rich through entrepreneurship?, could they get a flat screen tv, nice car etc? and more importantly would that apply in the same way to any other citizen who also did not go against their government?

In most cases no.

But then again that's true in the USA and most countries aswell.

Show me one entreprenuer that worked his way up from the slums and I'll show you hundreds that failed miserably or are merely susbsisting on the work they can get.

[Ryzorian]

Marxism is just a sorry excuse for a few educated elites to use the un educated masses to ged rid of the middle class, the only group that really threatens the upper class elites. A strong Middle class is what makes western governments strong.

The whole Marxist ideal doesn't work in reality because human nature disallows for such a theory to ever work beyond a book. Karl's ideal would require everyone to be selfless, while some people have shown great acts of selfless behavior, humanity as a whole is a selfcentered beast and allways has been.

China is trying to creat a middle class through controled capitolism while maintaining a dictatorship. It won't happen if they really build a true middle class because a middle class that thinks for itself invaribly ends up democratic if not out right republic.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Marxism is just a sorry excuse for a few educated elites to use the un educated masses to ged rid of the middle class, the only group that really threatens the upper class elites. A strong Middle class is what makes western governments strong.

The whole Marxist ideal doesn't work in reality because human nature disallows for such a theory to ever work beyond a book. Karl's ideal would require everyone to be selfless, while some people have shown great acts of selfless behavior, humanity as a whole is a selfcentered beast and allways has been.

China is trying to creat a middle class through controled capitolism while maintaining a dictatorship. It won't happen if they really build a true middle class because a middle class that thinks for itself invaribly ends up democratic if not out right republic.

It doesn't require people to be selfless. It just requires the working class to band together and work in their own interests instead of the interests of the middle class. Those interests being capital growth and nationalism among other things.

Some would argue that the revolution is yet to happen.

What we're seeing is a globalized society which is diluting nations and is increasingly becoming a world where the biggest differences are not between cultures or regions but between the haves and the have nots.

In a hundred years or so when those differences become profound we might see the true communist revolution take place... or we might not and history will take a completely different turn.

I can see a neo-fuedal age as a possibility also. An age where there is no middle class. Just an upper class and a working class whose only worth is a market one.

Or perhaps the status quo will remain.

Who knows.

Who knows... what we do know is that the USSR and China were not communist revolutions.

[pumpum]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

In most cases no.

But then again that's true in the USA and most countries aswell.

Show me one entreprenuer that worked his way up from the slums and I'll show you hundreds that failed miserably or are merely susbsisting on the work they can get.

so can i take from that - opportunity in China is about the same as in america then? (as long as they arent pissing the government off).

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by pumpum

so can i take from that - opportunity in China is about the same as in america then? (as long as they arent pissing the government off).

No I wouldn't say that.

If you're working class in the US you're still much better off than if you're working class in China. Just saying that moving up the ladder is hard in both countries.

[Ryzorian]

The US's orginal ideal was allowing people the freedom to achieve worth on thier own merit. True it hasn't allways upheld the ideal but that's the foundational aspect. China doesn't even have the ideal.

Ronin, the Middle class is what the lower class strives to achieve, that's where liveing is possible. Trying to destroy the middle class is why that whole concept fails because it removes the basic foundation that humaity is based on. Being able to achieve something. Take the achievement out of it, and nobody will do anything constructive and the whole thing collapses under it's own weight.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

The US's orginal ideal was allowing people the freedom to achieve worth on thier own merit. True it hasn't allways upheld the ideal but that's the foundational aspect. China doesn't even have the ideal.

Most countries in Western Europe weren't founded on this ideal and I would say that social migration is much more common in many of these countries.

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Ronin, the Middle class is what the lower class strives to achieve, that's where liveing is possible. Trying to destroy the middle class is why that whole concept fails because it removes the basic foundation that humaity is based on. Being able to achieve something. Take the achievement out of it, and nobody will do anything constructive and the whole thing collapses under it's own weight.

I don't think you understood what I said earlier.

The point of communism isn't to destroy the middle class but to eliminate class altogether.

And why do you think things can't be achieved in a communist utopia? Communism won't destroy scientists, doctors and technicians.

It will destroy the illusion of achievement created by capitalism. Who do you think is worth more in reality? The farmer that provides food or the factory worker that makes essential goods? Or the guy on Wall street whose job it is to move money around? Under capitalism the wall street guy is worth more. Under communism.. his job wouldn't exist.

[tipsygypsy]

Originally Posted by pumpum

If a Chinese citizen did not go against their government or cause any kind of subversion - then could that citizen become rich through entrepreneurship?, could they get a flat screen tv, nice car etc? and more importantly would that apply in the same way to any other citizen who also did not go against their government?

There are more than 150,000,000 so called rich people in China. That number is even bigger than whole population of Japan. Chinese are doubtlessly rich.

[Ryzorian]

Achievement is the goal Ronin. Take away the superbowl trophy and you don't have NFL football. You can't have achievement in a "classless" culture. .You kill the drive to become the best, to overcome what ever obstical that lays in the way, to adapt, improvise, overcome.

If everyone is "special"..then no one is, and everyone looses the will to be any better than "average".