What is your opinion on immigrants?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Cultural identity is not a combination of both at least not from a secular perspective.

The society deals with the public. Law, order, government etc.

Cultural identity is in the same realm as religion (except it doesn't make any grand claims other than it exists).

The private realm.

It sounds like we are talking about two different things. The culture I am thinking about is not a private thing. An individual may identify oneself privately with a certain culture,but the culture itself is public, no?

Originally Posted by File0

I'm sorry MMM but you failed to see what sangetsu said.
He wasn't simply saying that one culture is more advanced than another, but he's saying it's advanced cause its people surpassed their mere animal-instinct.
According to this, I'd say for us many of the Americans are closer to animals than many other nation's people, and you should agree with me cause you agreed with sangetsu previously...
When someone say a race/culture is closer to animals than others s/he does exactly what racists do!!!

Now, I'm not saying this, cause it's not just racist but also incredibly stupid.
I mean, WTF, you don't have to agree with them just because they're also Americans. I'm not even sure they are...

I showed no agreement or disagreement with what Sangetsu said, and I asked an independent question independently. Although my question came up from your exchange with Sangetsu, it was a neutral question raised in my mind from the exchange and I didn't mean to show alliance to either "side". I would never agree with someone "just because they are American".

[File0]

Originally Posted by MMM

I showed no agreement or disagreement with what Sangetsu said, and I asked an independent question independently. Although my question came up from your exchange with Sangetsu, it was a neutral question raised in my mind from the exchange and I didn't mean to show alliance to either "side". I would never agree with someone "just because they are American".

That's OK than, it just sounded like you'd done that...
The answer than to your question is pretty obviously no, but in the same time I think it is a quite ignorant thing to do...

BTW I'm sorry for the stupid example, I've got carried away...

[MMM]

Originally Posted by File0

That's OK than, it just sounded like you'd done that...
The answer than to your question is pretty obviously no, but in the same time I think it is a quite ignorant thing to do...

BTW I'm sorry for the stupid example, I've got carried away...

Then you and Ronin are saying different things. And no need to apologize.

[protheus]

Maybe you're mixing culture, as in traditions, customs and other parts relative to it and culture, as in societies "life style", interrelations and the technological evoluted state at a moment in time.

The first form, you can't have a basis for a logical (not subjective) comparison and it isn't a measurable amount in facts/things or anything else.
(example: if in a part of the world its usual that the bride wears white, and in other parts black, means one of them is less or more evolved?)
Only the second form, at which you have a basis of measurement -relating everything to today's forms of culture - can be considered in logical more or less quantities.
(example, technologically and human comfort status side, the Romans where more evolved in that time age, but less evolved relative to todays standards)

[GoNative]

Much of this thread is just sad in my mind. The level of ignorance and intolerance shown by some shows why multiculturalism struggles. And it never ceases to amaze me that the most intolerant and ignorant are often those that are religious. Personally I truly can't understand how any intelligent person can still believe in things like gods in this century. It absolutely astounds me. As much as I hope for a day of enlightenment when humans can live without fairytales of gods I would always fight for peoples right to have such beliefs and that regardless of where they lived they should be allowed to practice those beliefs without any predjudice.

Apart from religious intolerance the biggest threat to successful multiculturalism I believe is national pride (which I abhor). Patriotism/nationalism are based on pride. And pride really is a bad thing. Why? Because you cannot have pride without comparison. It's impossible to have pride without comparison. So the more proud you are of something (say your country) the more you start to believe that your country, your people and your culture are better than others. It should be obvious then how this translates into intolerance of others.

Multiculturalism can and does work. I believe in Australia on the whole it has been very successful and has played a big role in making the country as strong as it is today. Are there still racists in Australia? Sure plenty of them. Are there some problems with integration of new arrivals? Sure there's plenty. Thing is what we've found in Australia is give a couple of generations and people mostly integrate (not assimilate) just fine. As long as you don't suppress their freedom to be who they are, to practice their cultural and beliefs within the laws of the country and give them every opportunity to prosper with the same rights of any other citizen of the nation then they generally integrate with few problems at all.

Attack their beliefs, suppress their freedoms, try and assimilate them into being something they are not and sure you are going to have huge problems and create extremism on all sides. Assimilation is for the Borg not for new immigrants into a country!

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

It sounds like we are talking about two different things. The culture I am thinking about is not a private thing. An individual may identify oneself privately with a certain culture,but the culture itself is public, no?

I'm thinking the misunderstanding is with the word private rather than culture.

Culture can be EXPRESSED publicly sure. Just like religion can.

But it exists in the private realm meaning no particular culture has any bearing on public life regarding anything to do with the state (so law and order, government, police and military etc.)

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Much of this thread is just sad in my mind. The level of ignorance and intolerance shown by some shows why multiculturalism struggles. And it never ceases to amaze me that the most intolerant and ignorant are often those that are religious. Personally I truly can't understand how any intelligent person can still believe in things like gods in this century. It absolutely astounds me. As much as I hope for a day of enlightenment when humans can live without fairytales of gods I would always fight for peoples right to have such beliefs and that regardless of where they lived they should be allowed to practice those beliefs without any predjudice.

Apart from religious intolerance the biggest threat to successful multiculturalism I believe is national pride (which I abhor). Patriotism/nationalism are based on pride. And pride really is a bad thing. Why? Because you cannot have pride without comparison. It's impossible to have pride without comparison. So the more proud you are of something (say your country) the more you start to believe that your country, your people and your culture are better than others. It should be obvious then how this translates into intolerance of others.

Multiculturalism can and does work. I believe in Australia on the whole it has been very successful and has played a big role in making the country as strong as it is today. Are there still racists in Australia? Sure plenty of them. Are there some problems with integration of new arrivals? Sure there's plenty. Thing is what we've found in Australia is give a couple of generations and people mostly integrate (not assimilate) just fine. As long as you don't suppress their freedom to be who they are, to practice their cultural and beliefs within the laws of the country and give them every opportunity to prosper with the same rights of any other citizen of the nation then they generally integrate with few problems at all.

Attack their beliefs, suppress their freedoms, try and assimilate them into being something they are not and sure you are going to have huge problems and create extremism on all sides. Assimilation is for the Borg not for new immigrants into a country!

Awesome post.

[TalnSG]

Though I do believe in gods, I would agree with every thing else you stated about religion.

Originally Posted by GoNative

Patriotism/nationalism are based on pride. And pride really is a bad thing. Why? Because you cannot have pride without comparison. It's impossible to have pride without comparison. So the more proud you are of something (say your country) the more you start to believe that your country, your people and your culture are better than others. It should be obvious then how this translates into intolerance of others.

I disagree with the depiction of patriotism/nationalism. The two terms should not be interchangeable, as they have differing connotative meanings. Patriotism is that pride that exists regardless of the existence of any other country or people. It does not require comparison.

Nationalism, with it's negative connotation since the 1940's of extreme, blind, irrational, arrogance does indeed thrive on the condemnation of all others.

The crime is that all too often nationalism hides behind a banner of patriotisman and perverts a noble sentiment into something that corrupts the masses.

Multiculturalism can and does work. I believe in Australia on the whole it has been very successful and has played a big role in making the country as strong as it is today. Are there still racists in Australia? Sure plenty of them. Are there some problems with integration of new arrivals? Sure there's plenty. Thing is what we've found in Australia is give a couple of generations and people mostly integrate (not assimilate) just fine. As long as you don't suppress their freedom to be who they are, to practice their cultural and beliefs within the laws of the country and give them every opportunity to prosper with the same rights of any other citizen of the nation then they generally integrate with few problems at all.

Given the history of bigotry that still persists in Australia, it would be best to drop this example. I know of no Aboriginal, Japanese or Korean person who would accept this depiction of the country. Hate crimes persist in the major cities today and there is little evidence of any major effort on the part of the government to address the problem.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

I disagree with the depiction of patriotism/nationalism. The two terms should not be interchangeable, as they have differing connotative meanings. Patriotism is that pride that exists regardless of the existence of any other country or people. It does not require comparison.

Nationalism, with it's negative connotation since the 1940's of extreme, blind, irrational, arrogance does indeed thrive on the condemnation of all others.

I don't think patriotism and nationalism are seperate things.

Patriotism is simply a type of nationalism (which broadly speaking is simply the belief in nations).

But I suppose I agree that the sort of nationalism that patriotism invokes and the sort of nationalism that xenophobia invokes is different. (Though the line is very fine)

[MMM]

I think patriotism is being proud of your child for scoring a goal in soccer.

I think nationalism is thinking your child could beat all the other kids at soccer.