UN-NATO attack on Libya

[evanny]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Sure they have some now, however our anti missle system is far more capable than you realize.

some nukes? Russians have 6 000+ warheads. 1% of them is enough to burn this world down, specially if they decide to make another Tsar bomb and this time take the limiter off so it has 100 megaton yield.

also. ask your veterans about their use of tactic "sprayed-and-prayed" if they were dominating? and why is it that it were some 50 000 bullets per kill for them? and why was m-16 modified for burst fire? it's because all they did was lay down and fire in the jungle hoping that they'll hit something.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Ronin; Yes I have talked to Vietnam vets, they won every major engagement includeing the so called "Tet offensive". They were boged down by stupid rules of engagement...can't attack enemy convoys that aren't on the road, can't attack enemy troops inside ruins and temples, can't do this, can't do that. The whole thing was a joke. That's the biggest reason many are bitter, the govermnet wouldn't allow them to WIN.

No Ronin, China and Russia did not have Nukes right after ww2..only the US did. Russia didn't develope one until 1949, China was much later than that. Sure they have some now, however our anti missle system is far more capable than you realize. It's partly why we get upset when North Korea tests fires missles. We dont want to have to reveal how well our system works. No, it isn't the Patriot, that was never an anti missle system, it's actually an anti aircraft battery.

I wasn't talking about right after WW2. I was talking about Russia and China during Vietnam.

And sure.. the vets were/are bitter because of that too.. but you said that they dominated. They didn't. In fact most vets I've spoken to are more bitter about how they were in a place which was halfway accross the world, dying to protect people that didn't seem to want protecting.

Whatever you think of those rules of engagement, they were put in place so that they could accomplish that mission. (They still f*cked up though and managed to kill many civilians despite those rules of engagement being in place.)

I understand war Ronin; Destroy the enemy's will to fight by what ever means are required.

lol.. that's not wrong of course... but that's only one of many things that must be understood in war. You have to know who your enemy is and how they work before you can destroy the enemies will to fight.

It's like a paragraph in Sun Tzu.

If you want to understand war I think you should read that book.

You will understand why America lost and Vietnam won.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You will understand why America lost and Vietnam won.

Yes, Vietnam won... and lost. It was a civil war.

[termogard]

Originally Posted by evanny

some nukes? Russians have 6 000+ warheads. 1% of them is enough to burn this world down, specially if they decide to make another Tsar bomb and this time take the limiter off so it has 100 megaton yield.

As far as I know, according to long-standing US military doctrine they developed a concept of a First Strike by a huge amount of strategic missiles and bombers. In response, Soviet-Russians developed a concept of Retaliatory Strike. That's why Soviet missile silos were re-enforced by heavy armoured concrete and warheads of Russian missile carried multiple false targets. The concept of Retaliatory Strike meant a total annihilation of aggressor by overcoming its ABM and anti-aircraft defence systems.

By the way, American Skynet from a famous Terminator movies is a cheap toy-doll by comparison to real Dead Hand system of nuclear counter-attack of Russian origin.

quote :

Dead Hand (Russian: Система Периметр, Systema Perimetr)[1] (known also as Perimeter,[2] and Hand from Coffin) is purportedly a Cold-War-era nuclear-control system used by the Soviet Union and in use in Russia. An example of fail-deadly deterrence, it purportedly can automatically trigger the launch of the Russian ICBMs if a nuclear strike is detected by seismic, light, radioactivity and overpressure sensors. By most accounts, it is normally switched off and is supposed to be activated during dangerous crises only.

Wiki

[Ryzorian]

Evanny; Many nukes today have 100 megaton yields, that's not uncommon. Nuetron bombs can be detonated above a city and have the radiation be at safe levels with in a week. Plus no damage to the city. Russia doesn't have 6000 warheads, since that's against the Start treaty. Wich is beside the point really, since many of Russia's Nukes ended up in several break away states.

The USA's defensive anti missle system can detect the rotation of a basketball in Miami from New York. Not to mention satalites, and no, those Google photo's are not from Military satalites. The US doesn't operate from a "first strike" mind set as much as a "Final Strike" one. Least ways the military thinks that way, who knows what poloticians think like.

The real danger is a Cobalt bomb anyway. No one knows what type of damage one of those could do, though theories range from a Argentina sized crator to burning off earth's atmosphere.

Ronin; I have read Sun Tzu, point of fact, he's standard reading at West Point. Vietnam was fighting for independence, I understand that. It was France's friked up fight to start with, the US got draged in as a bystander and ended up being the main fighter cause France lost or pulled out and poloticians in the US were worrid about some "domino" BS.

Again, I will point out that the US was never fully involved in Vietnam as much as it could have been. It didn't go all out like it did against Japan. Some could say that was due to Russia and some unwritten rule about the two super powers keeping the gloves on so that WW3 didn't break out.

In any event ,even the action we did do, left a much greater impression on Vietnam than it did back in the States. Your average American doesn't think of Vietnam as anything more than a backdrop for a Rambo movie.


Kozyra; I'm a supporter of Isreal because they are our friend and ally. Therefore I don't support any actions by thier enemies, who are the US's enemies as well. Something Hezbolah and all the other wackadoo groups over there have made abuntantly clear over the decades. You don't think we dont see those marches with the nut jobs screamming "Death to Isreal and Death to America?". Calling Us the "Great Satan" doesn't win you any brownie points either.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

Yes, Vietnam won... and lost. It was a civil war.

Actually no it wasn't a civil war. North and South Vietnam were completely different states.

If you want to be specific,

NORTH Vietnam won and SOUTH Vietnam and America lost.

The North eventually taking the whole country and thus it becoming Vietnam.

In fact you could even say that the people of the South won considering many in the South SUPPORTED the Northern invasion as the US were backing a corrupt and inefficient South Vietnamese regime that was not popular with a large part of the South's rural communities.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Ronin; I have read Sun Tzu, point of fact, he's standard reading at West Point. Vietnam was fighting for independence, I understand that. It was France's friked up fight to start with, the US got draged in as a bystander and ended up being the main fighter cause France lost or pulled out and poloticians in the US were worrid about some "domino" BS.

Again, I will point out that the US was never fully involved in Vietnam as much as it could have been. It didn't go all out like it did against Japan. Some could say that was due to Russia and some unwritten rule about the two super powers keeping the gloves on so that WW3 didn't break out.

lol... stop repeating yourself.

Like I said.. the USA COULDN'T wage total war on North Vietnam because it would have potentially brought the USSR and China into the fray. Nor could it wage total war on the VietCong because they were guerilla fighters that could easily blend into the population (the people they were trying to protect).

War is not a sport.... so stop trying to cry foul and just accept that the USA lost.

In any event ,even the action we did do, left a much greater impression on Vietnam than it did back in the States. Your average American doesn't think of Vietnam as anything more than a backdrop for a Rambo movie.

And? What's your point?

Also you grossly exaggerate. I remember a slew of movies that told the story of the war in Vietnam and how terrible it was for the US soldiers. It wasn't just "Rambo"

Seen "Full Metal Jacket"? You know the scene where a little girl with a Kalishnikov took out a bunch of "hardened" American badasses? I might be mistaken but I think that scene was based on actual events.

Seen "Platoon"? It's based on actual Vietnam vet accounts of the war.

Seen "Born on the Fourth of July"? About a Vet who returns to America disillusioned with his country.

You dishonour the servicemen of your country by saying it wasn't a real war. It was a horrible war... and a war which "you" lost. (You keep using the pronoun "we" which is funny because it says how much of a nationalist you are as you weren't even there nor were you involved in any way.)

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Actually no it wasn't a civil war. North and South Vietnam were completely different states.

If you want to be specific,

NORTH Vietnam won and SOUTH Vietnam and America lost.

The North eventually taking the whole country and thus it becoming Vietnam.

In fact you could even say that the people of the South won considering many in the South SUPPORTED the Northern invasion as the US were backing a corrupt and inefficient South Vietnamese regime that was not popular with a large part of the South's rural communities.

God forbid you would ever admit you made a mistake, Ronin.

[evanny]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Evanny; Many nukes today have 100 megaton yields, that's not uncommon

actually no. they don't - no one has ever made bigger bomb than Tsar (limited to 50mt). nowadays there isn't even a place on this world left where you can safely test a 50mt version let alone 100mt - unless you're willing to melt the poles.

so, please, stop pulling s**t from your ass.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

God forbid you would ever admit you made a mistake, Ronin.

Except I didn't make a mistake.

You're just trying to catch me out because you think I'm anti-American. (When I'm actually not)