UN-NATO attack on Libya

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Ronin; I'm not "hurt" that the US left South vietnam to fend for itself and that it lost soon after. I'm dissapointed that the US polotical bosses didn't have the toughness required to beat an insurrection of that type. They are beatable. just takes longer and more personal than we wanted to involve.

As to how the vets feel and how they were treated, yes I agree they were mistreated. Yes some have nightmares about it. Yes the fighting was a tough slog.

My Comment about today is that aside from those vets, the war's effect on the US is exstreamly limited because it was all fought in Vietnam, thus the physical and emotional damage vietnam took full bore. The USA did not.The average American under the age of 30 probably doesn't even care.

No your main thrust on this Vietnam tangent was that the USA lost the war because it "had it's arm tied behind it's back" as though it was some kind of football match.

My point was that war is not like a football match and how you fight depends on the conditions for victory and as well as the conditions of the battlefield.

Despite the inferioir training and equipment, the Vietnamese fought to the conditions better than the Americans.

[GoNative]

Yeah the US really had it's arms tied in Vietnam

6,727,084 tons of bombs dropped on Indo China by the US during the Vietnam War.

2,700,000 tons dropped by Allies in European theather
656,400 tons dropped by Allies in Pacific war

So around double the tons of bombs dropped on a relatively small region compared to the entire allied bombing combined in WWII in Europe and the Pacific.

So hard to win a war when you are so restricted!

[Ryzorian]

Actually much of that was dureing the Linebacker operations where we were allowed to target sites in North Vietnam. Had them at the tables ready to talk peace, then congress got involved and messed it up. Up until then, the USA was very restricted in what targets it could actually attack and when.

Ronin; I'm not treating it like a football game, to me a war should be fought all out AKA "total war" style, or not at all. I personally don't believe in a "Limited" war. These "police actions" and "Kinitic military operations" are retarded. Either Blast them to hell or find a peaceful solution.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Ronin; I'm not treating it like a football game, to me a war should be fought all out AKA "total war" style, or not at all. I personally don't believe in a "Limited" war. These "police actions" and "Kinitic military operations" are retarded. Either Blast them to hell or find a peaceful solution.

Fine.. ignore reality then where everything isn't so black and white.

[Ryzorian]

Reality didn't do anyone any favors when we fought half a dozen "limited" wars since WW2. Either fight a war or don't. It's like the adage; Never draw a sword if you don't intend to use it.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Reality didn't do anyone any favors when we fought half a dozen "limited" wars since WW2. Either fight a war or don't. It's like the adage; Never draw a sword if you don't intend to use it.

Reality isn't doing you a favour because you don't seem to factor it in to your posts.

Do you even remember what your point was or are you just rambling.

REALITY is what stops your little fantasy of the USA being able to conquer and control Asia and Europe after WW2.

REALITY is what stopped the USA for waging total war against whomever they come up against.

But I agree with you on one thing.. the war that the USA fought in Vietnam was a disaster because the people in charge didn't have the grip on REALITY that they thought they did.

[lynnharlynn]

Originally Posted by termogard

Here is an article :

No to imperialist intervention in Libya!

19 March 2011

The World Socialist Web Site categorically opposes any military intervention in Libya. The drive toward war, which was given the green light by the UN Security Council on Thursday, has nothing to do with the humanitarian pretexts offered up by the major powers. Rather, it represents the violent imperialist subjugation of a former colony.

The bombing of Libya by French, British and American planes will not protect human life, but will transform the country into a battlefield with thousands of innocent victims. This is an imperialist war. Libya is an oppressed, former colonial country. The WSWS rejects fundamentally and in all circumstances military attacks by imperialist powers on such countries.

Moreover, this war will take place without any democratic legitimacy. There is not the slightest indication that it is supported by the populations of the countries involved. Once again, huge sums are being spent on a war even as the same governments declare there is no money for social programs.

Rest of article

All those "allied efforts" of the US and NATO to bring democracy and peace to other nations are really nothing short than rude and plain aggression. Frankly. We saw a similar story in Iraq already.
Finally they will turn poor country into greater-scale chaos and steal their natural sources.

Its all about money/oil and life style, France and other European countries need cheep oil, but no one really wants to say that.

[Kozyra]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Kozyra; You and I will just not be able to agree. Everything you claim the US and Isreal is doing to Arabs and Palistians, I think Muslim Arabs and Palistians are doing to the US and Isreal. ..I suspect that we are probabably both wrong in some ways and both right in others.

The US never got free oil from Iraq, not one barrel. Maybe the Opec nations can pay 10million barrels of free oil a day to the US as "tribute", to keep the US out of the Middle east, includeing Ireal. After all, that's all we really want anyway.

Yes , I agree with you that we will not reach to a common point so let's stop talking about this subject .

Originally Posted by Atredies

kozyra. i would never worry too much. by the time china becomes powerful, china will force america to make peace with muslim countries. this is becoming a reality.

i am a christian american who had spent two years of my life in a muslim country called indonesia. i can never see islam a serious world problem. the mass media wants to make islam a problem for the sake of making money.

peace originates from loving love. love thy neighbors.

That was my idea from the beginning , and I will be very pleased and happy when I see China and Russia and other nations living in peace with the Islamic countries, and establish relations of friendship and love with them , and frankly I want all the world to establish relations of peace and love with the Islamic countries.
I love the people of Indonesia and Malaysia, they are really nice and friendly , and I want to visit Indonesia and Malaysia in the future , much of Arab people have abandoned the principles of Islam and much of Arabs now are living without principles , while many of the Indonesian people apply Islamic principles , They work to develop themselves in various areas of life, they are really wonderful people.

[Ryzorian]

Ronin; Reality is a tricky thing. I was simply trying to explain that if the US had been the evil empire everyone has made it out to be, the World would have been much different after WW2. You disagree with this. I won't deny that the world stage dictated some of the USA's responses to things, but not nearly as much as you think. Again, while the US does move to protect it's own national interests, as would any nation. It's nothing like the old Roman Empire.

I suppose in some aspects it's difficult for folks such as I and Kozyra to see things the way everyone else does, because our Holy Books have certain proficies in them wich we believe WILL happen, and soon. So when I say certain things in the Middle East will transpire, it's partly because I believe these proficies are starting to take place. Ronin, that's not something you and I could debate reasonably.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Kozyra

That was my idea from the beginning , and I will be very pleased and happy when I see China and Russia and other nations living in peace with the Islamic countries, and establish relations of friendship and love with them , and frankly I want all the world to establish relations of peace and love with the Islamic countries.

Then you need to consider the words of the man whose picture you are using.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment."

Until mankind ceases to wage war in the name of religion, there will be no peace. Christians, Muslims, Jews and most other religions have all had their periods in history when mass murder was justified by forcing the masses to choose between living a lie or death.

Even if wars cease, man will not be at peace as long as retribution and condemnation of those who do not believe in another person's myth persists. As the same man so righfully said,

"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."