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05-28-2011, 07:50 AM
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Anyway what I am referring to is entrenched in archeology, genetics and these mythical tales in the Japanese texts. Remember these Japanese stories have been distorted and changed over the centuries but in essense they had a grain of truth, the trouble is figuring out who the mythic charachters real life counter part was, or more likey is that significant people in the past were glorified as gods....this is what the yayoi did, they deitized their ancestors making them gods in these mytholoigcal tales (for oral transmission). each Uji had their own unique gods and tales based on their past, over time they just got jumbled up (as they conquered each other, incorperating their subjects gods) into a huge random ball of stories and tales of gods conquering an enemy, slaying 8 headed dragon monsters (Orochi), invading enemy territory etc. What archeology says is that the Yayoi likey originated in Kyushu and spread out to the outlying islands. It doesn't matter if the Yayoi took the territory by war or by cultural imperialism - either way it became Yayoi and thats a fact we both agree on. Without getting into pages and pages or comparisions and details between whats writtin in the Nihon Shoki and Kojiki, Book of Sui, Korean texts and actual archeologiical and genetic evidence, we know genetically that Japan is broken down in a way that we know without a doubt which peoples occupied which region and in the order they lived (carbon dating of artifacts and remains). Northern Kyushu is a heavy mix of Yayoi, Jomon, a little Kumaso and what is believed to be the Korean DNA from the Kofun immigration. its beleived that DNA is Korean because is denser in the areas where it is confirmed the Torajin, Baekje refugees after the battle of Baekjang and other outsiders arrived in Japan. Souther Kyushu has much more Kumaso genes than the north, some yayoi, and jomon. From western Honshu to the Kanto plain the DNA breakdown is Jomon, Yayoi, and lots of that Korean genes. The further north you go from the Kanto plain you have more Jomon, less Yayoi and less of the Korean gene. Tie all that in with archeloigcal evidence that Yayoi indeed spread out from Kyushu (or at least it was the biggest port for Yayoi culture determined by how old and how numerous evidence is), what the stories in the Nihon Shoki/Kojiki say and you get a vauge idea from where the Yayoi arrived, spread out and mingled with the Jomon, then to be overtaken by the Kofun culture when Baekje invaded. Again as more is discovered the picture gets clearer, but for the moment we have a bunch of fragments in the forms of genetics, archeology, whats in the Kojiki and Nihon shoki and tie them together to try to get the best picture possible. 
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05-28-2011, 05:05 PM
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Your original point being that war is a legitimate way to acquire land for Israel simply because it had happened throughout history. Something I call bullsh*t on. In fact all such darwinian justifications for most things (except for evolution and nature) are bogus.
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05-28-2011, 07:25 PM
alright yes, i went off topic with the Yayoi. it doesnt directly apply to Isreal.
are you saying war ISNT a a legit way to aquire land? it is but not common anymore, Isreal is the best example of how force created their nation. With globalisation you dont ahve one country invading another without another a variety of other nations supporting each side. They are just looking out for their interests that the nation in question can offer them, or the alternative is just not desirable period. case in point what the USA did and does all over the world. As a result it gets way to messy when you want to fight someone. too many other countries stand in your way so war isnt viable anymore...unless there were a mass agreement that someone should be destroyed (the 3rd Reich) Isreal BOUGHT its land from Palestine before 1948. Yes, they bought it fair and square. Then they declared independance and were able to fight off the surrounding Arab states to the present day. They have a strong army and nukes, and their neighbors dont like it but what can they do? they are stronger AT THE MOMENT. the strong win. Its about who is strong enough to hold and occupy that land not who lays claim to it historically. if you cant see that you are blind. in this case isreal is strong enough because of US/European support from 1948 onwards as well as their own determination to defend themselves. If they are able to militariliy hold their ground, Nobody has the right to say they dont deserve to be there. Any way you look at Isreal, they took their land by war and they currenlty hold it, making it theirs. America started like Isreal, we were once subjects to Britian....but we revolted much like the Isrealis did against Palestine and we BEAT the British...and created our own nation. How is that different from what Isreal is doing? furthermore they have support from outside. Alright tell me how darwinisn is bogus with the human population of this world? I think you think I believe that military strength= superiority. no. granted we do not exterminate the people conquered like animals and planets....its more human darwinism is more like having a throne that only one nation can occupy and nations are squabbling over it. Whoever occupied the throne before you, all of his achievments will became a part of your....just stacking up on each other in slow (often selfish and unequal) progress. The British were the 1st people to have a world wide empire, followed by America who does it in an economic fashion....we also have Army Garrisions in every country on the planet..whats does that imply about our strength and our influence? We are far more complex than plants or animals. There are a multitude of other ways that humans can be 'superior' than other humans. One an individual level one can be more attractive, wealthier, more intelligent, witty, physically strong.....one a nation wide level its having political advantages over others (why do u think Tony Blair was such brown noser), natural resources, buying power, military strength etc that say, "u cant mess with us cus if you take us out your economy fails' or simpley cus we have to massive an army to fight. At the moment (which is soon to end) America's cultural imperialism spreads far around the world. How else do people in India know who Drew Barrymore is, know that California is awesome or so many people on earth speak English? Why do people in Hong Kong have names like Rick Lee, or Chuck Fong? cultural imperialism. soon China will take the throne from the USA and cultural imperialism will follow. You see it already with an increase in Chinese speakrs and ppl studying Chinese, getting ready for the big shift.
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05-29-2011, 02:26 AM
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I understand the nature of International Relations.. but to go as far as offer my support to a country that systematically keeps a good size of it's population that is under its jurisdiction on the brink of poverty just because "that's the way it is" is unnacceptable. You've offerred me explanations on how things are, not how things should be (which I would have thought to be the most important factor with regard to whom or what you offer your support). A common mistake amongst those that advocate a sort of "might makes right" mentality. I mean let me ask you a question. Do you support all the unconvicted murderers and rapists that are out there in society? For you to be consistent with regard to your value system you would have to support them due to the fact that they have evaded capture. As for Israel having been bought.... Some of the land was for sure. There was a Zionist movement that existed at the time, the goal of which was to establish the state of Israel, and their strategy was to buy land in the region and move in, but politically speaking, the land itself was a former British colony which was then turned over to the minority Jewish population after WW2 who subsequently pushed the Palestinians that did live there out (ironic considering the reason the Jews were given a homeland supposedly was because they were usually on the receiving end of such treatment). Controversial amongst Palestinians because the British enlisted Palestinians against the Germans on the promise that it would be they that received a homeland. But all that aside, the fact is that much of the current borders of Israel today used to be Palestinian land which was taken from them by conquest and today it is largely occupied.
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05-29-2011, 03:54 AM
you make some very good points Ronin,
it doesnt change the fact that Isreal has bigger guns and missiles than its neighbors though...and as long as that continues I think they will do as they see fit. You dont see many countries messin with the dudes with the guns. America, China, Russia, Germany, India, Japans small defense force that is hella advanced, France, North Koreas huge but dated army, the UK....all nations that nobody will mess with. I wouldnt want to face the Isreali military either...probably the most experienced soldiers in the world. But who knows what the future is going to be like.
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05-30-2011, 02:59 AM
Isreal was a nantion 3000 years ago Ronin, that's fact. So the Hebrews were allowed back to thier ancestoral HOMELAND, after they were scattered by Rome in 73 AD and found a bunch of squatters sitting on it in 1948..and pushed them out...BIG WUP.
I find some dude sitting on my porch after I'm gone a while and I call the police. Your makeing the wrong arguement here. Isreal doesn't belong to the "palistians" and it NEVER did.
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