New to the Japan Forum and language.(=

[JohnBraden]

Originally Posted by masaegu

If you just said to yourself "no" a couple of times, then why the heck should I or anyone else not say the same to romaji-users? Wrong is wrong. Weird is weird. Let's start thinking things in relative terms and, most of all, be fair, dudes!

If this were true and romaji is wrong and weird, why do Japanese cultural societies here in the states use the romaji-using Japanese learning books? Why would there be a romaji book business at all? I use it in my classes at the Japan American Society of Chicago and it has helped me quite a bit. Though I'm weening my way out of the system completely, it is a "first step" approach to the language that seems to work for quite a few people.

[RobinMask]

Originally Posted by masaegu

Thanks for the nice words, romaji-lovers!

What would you advise an English-learner from Japan if he asked you to correct his English sentences right below?

「ユーガイズアービーイングソーアンリーズナブル。ア イムリアリーディスアポインテッド。」

Would you be willing to correct that? Would you even care to read it for that matter? Will this "English-learner" be communicating with anyone effectively if he kept writing English like that just because it's easier for him to write English with kana as the Roman alphabet looks so strange and foreign to him? Would you call yourself elitest/purist/fanatic if you thought English should not be written in kana?

If you just said to yourself "no" a couple of times, then why the heck should I or anyone else not say the same to romaji-users? Wrong is wrong. Weird is weird. Let's start thinking things in relative terms and, most of all, be fair, dudes!

You raise an excellent point, but I think the crux of the matter is why a person is learning Japanese, and the answer to this could justify the use of romaji in learning.

I personally want to become fluent, I also want to read/write, and so I use kana whenever I can and get textbooks in kana, and if I was to use romaji extensively in commuinicating then yes it would hold me back. You would be right in such an example, the use of romaji would not help such a person at all, they wouldn't be able to progress as easily or at all.

However what about the person who just wants to be conversational? What about a person who wants the oral skills for a holiday, or visiting friends, or just to converse on a daily basis? In this case their priority isn't writing or reading, it's speaking. In this case I would justify the use of romaji, because the time and effort it would take to use kana would be counter-productive to that individual's needs. Romaji is sufficient for a casual learner or one only interested in speaking.

If we take your example I would ask why is the Japanese speaker learning English and how. If he/she is learning with or from other Japanese natives, and if he/she has the priority of speaking English without the written skills, then why would them speaking only in kana be an issue?

[manganimefan227]

I think romaji helps beginners too. On websites like animelyrics.com they type song lyrics in romaji and spaced out to distinguish words. This helps people like me who are just beginning. I am able to translate the lyrics alot easier than a regular kanji filled sentence here.

Hello and welcome! I have a helpful list of Japanese phrases I can give to you if you'd like them!

[tenmins]

Originally Posted by masaegu

「ユーガイズアービーイングソーアンリーズナブル。ア イムリアリーディスアポインテッド。」

Would you be willing to correct that? Would you even care to read it for that matter? Will this "English-learner" be communicating with anyone effectively if he kept writing English like that just because it's easier for him to write English with kana as the Roman alphabet looks so strange and foreign to him? Would you call yourself elitest/purist/fanatic if you thought English should not be written in kana?

If you just said to yourself "no" a couple of times, then why the heck should I or anyone else not say the same to romaji-users? Wrong is wrong. Weird is weird. Let's start thinking things in relative terms and, most of all, be fair, dudes!

You're either missing the point about romaji being a great starting point for English speakers to learn Japanese or you're just fishing for attention. Probably the latter.

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by tenmins

You're either missing the point about romaji being a great starting point for English speakers to learn Japanese or you're just fishing for attention. Probably the latter.

Clearly not. What have you done for JF anyway, compared to me, Mister?

Nevermind. No use talking to people who cannot think things in relative terms. If logic doesn't work in this thread, then it isn't where I should be.

When you expect me to write English using the letters you expect it to be written with, it's just taken for granted. When I expect you to write Japanese using the letters I expect it to be written with, I get called names in public. LMAO

I'm going back to the Language section where I fortunately get busy enough answering questions from the more serious and much friendlier Japanese-learners.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by masaegu

Thanks for the nice words, romaji-lovers!

What would you advise an English-learner from Japan if he asked you to correct his English sentences right below?

「ユーガイズアービーイングソーアンリーズナブル。ア イムリアリーディスアポインテッド。」

Would you be willing to correct that? Would you even care to read it for that matter? Will this "English-learner" be communicating with anyone effectively if he kept writing English like that just because it's easier for him to write English with kana as the Roman alphabet looks so strange and foreign to him? Would you call yourself elitest/purist/fanatic if you thought English should not be written in kana?

If you just said to yourself "no" a couple of times, then why the heck should I or anyone else not say the same to romaji-users? Wrong is wrong. Weird is weird. Let's start thinking things in relative terms and, most of all, be fair, dudes!

If Katakana were as common in western countries as romaji is in Japan, then it would be entirely acceptable to correct such a sentence.
If however the learner is relatively advanced, it would be preposterous for the learner to still be using a crutch in writing than to learn the languages more suitable writing styles.

Does this appeal to your sense of logic enough? Or is it not put in relative terms enough?

[jesselt]

I, for one, am very glad that I never studied a single word in romaji. The idea that romaji can act as a stepping stone is a little silly, really. A stepping stone to what exactly? Anyone who is serious about learning the language can learn Kana in 2 weeks or less, and then they can begin to pronounce words correctly. Romaji has become so complicated that there are multiple ways to write words and almost none of them are even used correctly when people write it. Do I write 授業 like jugyou? Because that is how you type it.

What is more is that writing jugyou immediately tells an English speaker that it is pronounced "jug-you" and you have to fight that impulse. When you write じゅぎょう it is clear how it is pronounced.

Romaji may be somewhat common in Japan - certainly not on things like documents, books, etc. - but it is more like a novelty. Japanese people don't actually read entire things written in Romaji, and neither should Japanese learners. There is nothing elitist about this opinion just because you do not like it.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by jesselt

I, for one, am very glad that I never studied a single word in romaji. The idea that romaji can act as a stepping stone is a little silly, really. A stepping stone to what exactly? Anyone who is serious about learning the language can learn Kana in 2 weeks or less, and then they can begin to pronounce words correctly.

Not everyone is such a serious learner... and I did agree that a serious learner shouldn't be relying on romaji, but bashing it entirely is just being ridiculous.

[Realism]

Originally Posted by masaegu

Thanks for the nice words, romaji-lovers!



「ユーガイズアービーイングソーアンリーズナブル。ア イムリアリーディスアポインテッド。」

You guys are so unreasonable, I am dissappointed.

Yay

[StonerPenguin]

Originally Posted by masaegu

「ユーガイズアービーイングソーアンリーズナブル。アイムリアリーディスアポインテッド。」

Originally Posted by Realism

You guys are so unreasonable, I am dissappointed.

Yay

Actually...
"You guys are being so unreasonable. I'm really disappointed."

I read masaegu's post but decided not to translate it since I thought it might spoil masaegu's fun/point. Although, even though I can read in katakana it's still rather awkaward to work with... I understood all of what he wrote immediately except 「アンリーズナブル」, I had to spend a minute reading it out loud before I got that it was "unreasonable"
And as far as correcting the sentence;
「ユーガイズアービーイングソーアンリーズナブル。アイムリアリーディスアポインテッド。」
→「ユーガイズアービーイングソーアンリーゾ　（Ｏｒ　ソ？）ナブル。アイムリアリーディサポインテッド。」
Ａｍ　Ｉ　ｒｉｇｈｔ？