Japanophile - and other open discussion

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Fr3sh

Daaaaamn!!!! Why doesn't the dude get himself a whore loool! Personally nothing turns me off more than a women that asks me to buy her a drink....

Anyways there has always been some sort of theft but it doesn't sound too bad in Japan lol....just push away the girls that throw themselves at you. Over here in Canada its not that bad but fights outside or outside of clubs\bars and theft isn't something that is too rare.

But daamn those women sound vicious though

These women are not scam artists, they work at hostess clubs and that's exactly what you go to get when you go into one of those places. They are employees of the club, and may even have their pictures around the entrance.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by MMM

These women are not scam artists, they work at hostess clubs and that's exactly what you go to get when you go into one of those places. They are employees of the club, and may even have their pictures around the entrance.

Nah man not anymore. That was before. Hostess clubs make no money now. Those girls are hunters. Move in groups, usually 2, in case the guy gets out of hand. Japanese girls don;t do it, they stick to their clubs and returning clients.

Before it worked as such: girls had a dohan, brought client to the club, then went out with him to the shotbar, and called him a cab so he can safely go home. Now, it is a deal between clubs ran by the Black guys (connected to Yakuza) and the girls (that mostly were strippers or whookers). Way back, I know that some strippers made up to 9-10 mln yen / months in stip joints alone. Once their income went down, they found another way to fix that - scams. Also, lots of clubs was closed by the Police after many cc scams were reported. Even US Embassy was warning ppl about it.

So now in Roppon gi you have 70% of wally hunters, 20% of military, and 10% of people who should not be there.

[RealJames]

Hostess clubs don't make nearly as much money as they did during the bubble.

They're still around and doing okay, though.
A few of my students are hostesses actually, I love hearing their stories.
Another thing I love about them is they are way more open about themselves than most women are, it's not a shameful job.

Working for a fuzoku, though, is shameful.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

Nah man not anymore. That was before. Hostess clubs make no money now. Those girls are hunters. Move in groups, usually 2, in case the guy gets out of hand. Japanese girls don;t do it, they stick to their clubs and returning clients.

Before it worked as such: girls had a dohan, brought client to the club, then went out with him to the shotbar, and called him a cab so he can safely go home. Now, it is a deal between clubs ran by the Black guys (connected to Yakuza) and the girls (that mostly were strippers or whookers). Way back, I know that some strippers made up to 9-10 mln yen / months in stip joints alone. Once their income went down, they found another way to fix that - scams. Also, lots of clubs was closed by the Police after many cc scams were reported. Even US Embassy was warning ppl about it.

So now in Roppon gi you have 70% of wally hunters, 20% of military, and 10% of people who should not be there.

I guess you are talking specifically about Roppongi only. I was just talking about hostess clubs in general. I don't want people making the mistake of thinking a hostess bar is a brothel... even if they do charge about the same prices.

[ryuurui]

Hostesses is one thing, strippers is another, bj clubs and other shocking places are also a separate thing. Hostess job is great if you like to party. And it is not shameful, agreed. The only drawback is that you have to spend time with drooling pervs. You paid to eat, drink and sing, you receive gifts and whatnot. There are two types of hostesses. The smart ones - who wrap the client around the finger and milk him like a cow. The dumb ones - who shagg the client. The first way is an art, wheras the other is a ret-art.

Remember that Japanese hostesses can easily build and maintain a base of clients. Outside Roppongi, foreign clubs don't make that much money anymore. Also, Japanese and foreigners are scared that they will get scammed, so they prefer Japanese clubs.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

Hostess job is great if you like to party. And it is not shameful, agreed. The only drawback is that you have to spend time with drooling pervs. You paid to eat, drink and sing, you receive gifts and whatnot.

That's actually a bit of a problem, each of my hostess students gets taken out to nice restaurants nearly every night, and then to the club to drink and chat. The problem is they gain a fair bit of weight eating out every night and drinking every night, which is obviously bad for business. So they have to work out a lot haha.

Oh the difficulties of being paid to be pretty and sociable.

[evanny]

wasn't hostesses supposed to just stay in the bar? since when do they go out with clients? it's like special kind of hostess?

well, my knowledge of this comes form movie Osaka love thief so could be wrong. they showed some 8 guys drinking all the time with women. they went to one client to another all around - like bees on flowers

[MMM]

Originally Posted by evanny

wasn't hostesses supposed to just stay in the bar? since when do they go out with clients? it's like special kind of hostess?

well, my knowledge of this comes form movie Osaka love thief so could be wrong. they showed some 8 guys drinking all the time with women. they went to one client to another all around - like bees on flowers

A typical hostess would see her "clients" mostly in the bar/club. Popular ones will also go on dates with certain clients, but it isn't a "special kind" of hostess, just a popular one. Often the date will end with the client taking the hostess to the club, and he will continue to drink (and spend money) there.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by RealJames

In north America, with any class or category of friendship or relation, strangers and friends alike, you can quite easily get into a heated and sometimes aggressive argument on these topics because they do take it personally. That's a major cultural difference.

You said something along the lines that it is rare for someone Japanese to have strong opinions about politics or religion. My response was that people DO have strong opinions, but are less likely to give knee jerk reactions. Not taking it personally then lashing out at someone is not a sign that they don`t have much of an opinion on it. I read your message to mean that you felt it did.

I had an honest conversation with a Mexican guy I met on the train, for 10 minutes, but after 3 years of friendship with a few different people, I still have point out that their tatemae is transparent as plastic wrap and I feel it devalues our friendship to receive it when the truth is equally clear as crystal.

You`re asking people to do something likely even more uncomfortable than having that layer of plastic wrap in there makes you feel. Saying things directly is something you do to people you don`t like - people who you don`t really care what they think of you and your manners in the long run.
In asking friends to stop doing that, you`re asking them to treat you like someone they don`t give a crap about.
If the truth is clear, then they know the truth is clear, and the tatemae is kindness on their part.

Something you might find interesting - ask around what constitutes 性格悪い. Also, what kind of behavior by a friend would make them "引く".

I usually bring them up more seriously with people who are going abroad so they know what to expect, that's a bit of a special case though.

In general, I don`t think that people would ever get upset about being educated on the differences in ways of thinking. It is when talk of one being superior comes up that people internally cringe. The more obvious and unveiled the pushing of one set of ideas is, the worse they`ll think of the person speaking.

----------------
This thread advances so quickly that it`s hard to keep up.

Is it true that there is a great amount of pornography and prostitution in japan?
I have read some blogs here and there, and they all claim this is somewhat frequent, however some of these seem a little biased.

I`m going to second what MMM has said. More visible, but likely not more quantity. I also have never seen anything like a "street walker".

In the case of whales, I read they are ok with it, due to cultural differences ( I agree).

Actually, most people aren`t necessarily okay with the whale hunting. The majority thinks that it is unnecessary. But there is a difference between thinking it isn`t needed and thinking that Japan should be stopped from doing something that would rob some people of traditional foods.

However in the case of dolphins, the only region that actively hunts dolphins is taiji, and there are many risks related to eating their meat, the taiji hunters attempted to promote it...

That is a small area with a local set of rules. It can`t really be applied to the rest of Japan.

Ok one more question, what about the gerontocracy? A guy living in japan, claims people get better income, according to the time they have been working at the company (he also says there is no other way to get a promotion), the oldest members of the enterprise will always be at the top, whilst the newest will have a lower rank no matter what, furthermore, he also says the only requirement the companies ask for is a college degree, even if it has nothing to do with the activities of the enterprise, since the employees undergo a compulsory training.

This is partly true and partly based on company.
You really only do need a degree (in the proper field, hopefully with good grades). Companies actually tend to prefer a lack of experience for those starting from the bottom as policies between companies differ greatly... And companies love to have ISOs for parts of their operation. They like to train based upon their company philosophy to keep things smooth.
As for company seniority - there are two ways of looking at it.
Pay is generally calculated based on an "age pay" and "skill pay", with little additions for position and the like. Higher your age, the higher the age pay. The more verified skills, the higher the skill pay. There is a great chance that if you`ve been working there a long time you have more of at least the age side, if not the skills, so may be paid more.

As for promotion - that is really a company thing.
My husband is one step away from 課長 level (called マネジャー in his company) at エキスパート・チームリーダー... And he is only 31. He was the youngest to enter his company in the year he did (everyone else had degree plus years of 専門学校), and is by far the highest in rank. Actually, he is the youngest at that high of a rank at all. In his company, which is not special or "non-Japanese" by any stretch, they do normal promotions based on work performance.
It all depends on the company.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You said something along the lines that it is rare for someone Japanese to have strong opinions about politics or religion. My response was that people DO have strong opinions, but are less likely to give knee jerk reactions. Not taking it personally then lashing out at someone is not a sign that they don`t have much of an opinion on it. I read your message to mean that you felt it did.

Yeah that's my bad, given the nature of my statements I should have been a lot more explicit to say that when I felt Japanese people didn't have such strong opinions about politics and religion, I simply meant to say they didn't take it so personally and react in such an emotional way as westerners do, they stay quite level headed and reasonable even if discussing something they don't believe or disagree with.
That is both good and bad, the good reasons I just clearly stated, the bad is that it can be very difficult to get the truth.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You`re asking people to do something likely even more uncomfortable than having that layer of plastic wrap in there makes you feel. Saying things directly is something you do to people you don`t like - people who you don`t really care what they think of you and your manners in the long run.
In asking friends to stop doing that, you`re asking them to treat you like someone they don`t give a crap about.
If the truth is clear, then they know the truth is clear, and the tatemae is kindness on their part.

I think if we continue down this path we need to distinguish between white lies and attempts at obfuscating the truth.
If my friend is staying too late at my house, it's okay to say something like "I'm worried you'll miss your last train" or "Won't your girlfriend be upset if you stay out too late?" instead of "dude, go home, I want a little alone-time before I got o bed". Both of those are okay, and that's not the kind of tatemae that irritates me.
but
If I'm going to have a party next month, and I mention it to a friend, and the friend says something like "I'll try to open up my schedule to attend!" and I fully know he has no intentions of attending because he's scared shitless of being in a situation where he has to speak English with new people, and I know he's not going to come. That to me is just...
or even better
If a friend of mine who is always ultra busy, and impossible to make plans with, says something like "hey call me anytime, I'm just bored doing nothing, we can hang out." instead of just saying "man I'm sorry my schedule is so packed, that's life in Japan I guess, you know I wanna hang out but I just can't anytime soon... but I will send a message if something frees up!" (if the last part is true). To me that kind of tatemae is just irritating.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Something you might find interesting - ask around what constitutes 性格悪い. Also, what kind of behavior by a friend would make them "引く".

That's seikakuwarui yeah? I was told it basically means being mean, or inconsiderate, generally intentionally. I was also told it takes a lot to be called that, and that people like that can't really have/keep any friends.

And hiku I was told... you'd have to like put shit on your friends face or walk through their parents house naked or do something quite extreme, I couldn't get any realistic examples. Another example was a case of super extreme inconsideration, like telling the guy who's dying of lung cancer that he was an idiot for smoking and he deserves it.
But maybe the first few examples are kimochiwarui-hiku, yeah?

Can you give me your versions of these?

Originally Posted by Nyororin

In general, I don`t think that people would ever get upset about being educated on the differences in ways of thinking. It is when talk of one being superior comes up that people internally cringe. The more obvious and unveiled the pushing of one set of ideas is, the worse they`ll think of the person speaking.

Yeah I agree with that entirely, as long as you aren't pushing or being patronizing or demeaning the conversation can go quite far.

Whereas in the west, if you so much as say
"darwin said ..." to a fundamentalist, or if you say
"in the bible ... " to an atheist you'll get your face ripped off

Nyororin, with your closest friend, have you ever felt an inability to open up to, or be shown their true colors, due to cultural limitations?
How about with regular friends?