Japanophile - and other open discussion

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by RealJames

That's actually a bit of a problem, each of my hostess students gets taken out to nice restaurants nearly every night, and then to the club to drink and chat. The problem is they gain a fair bit of weight eating out every night and drinking every night, which is obviously bad for business. So they have to work out a lot haha.

Oh the difficulties of being paid to be pretty and sociable.

I think the biggest issue of a hostess is to have to talk to a boring guy who is full of himself about absolute rubbish, and pretend you enjoy it. And yeah, the drinking part is destroying a lot of girls.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by RealJames

That is both good and bad, the good reasons I just clearly stated, the bad is that it can be very difficult to get the truth.

I think the biggest cultural difference is that you feel the need to get the truth on this kind of thing.

but
If I'm going to have a party next month, and I mention it to a friend, and the friend says something like "I'll try to open up my schedule to attend!" and I fully know he has no intentions of attending because he's scared shitless of being in a situation where he has to speak English with new people, and I know he's not going to come. That to me is just...

To me, this feels like the same kind of thing. He doesn`t want to outright say that he doesn`t want to go. You`ve been kind enough to invite him. You know how he will feel about it (the fear you speak of) and have extended your invitation. To me, it would read as a completely "friendly" exchange. His view: You know he won`t come, but extend the invitation because he is a friend and it would be impolite not to. He replies with a polite response that shows he appreciates the offer, without saying anything offensive about not wanting to go.

If a friend of mine who is always ultra busy, and impossible to make plans with, says something like "hey call me anytime, I'm just bored doing nothing, we can hang out." instead of just saying "man I'm sorry my schedule is so packed, that's life in Japan I guess, you know I wanna hang out but I just can't anytime soon... but I will send a message if something frees up!" (if the last part is true). To me that kind of tatemae is just irritating.

I guess I just can`t see the problem with this...? He does want to hang out. You have your own schedule. Call anytime and hopefully there will be a way to fit meeting up into both of your schedules. If one of you doesn`t push - you, in this case as you`re less busy - then nothing can start.

That's seikakuwarui yeah? I was told it basically means being mean, or inconsiderate, generally intentionally. I was also told it takes a lot to be called that, and that people like that can't really have/keep any friends.

If you look into what exactly 性格悪い people do to be mean and inconsiderate - I`d say most of it involves being honest (in a very straight way) even when it isn`t what the other person wants to hear. A good example would be asking someone their opinion on clothes that look awful on you. "It looks good, but I really think that something else would make you look even nicer." is OK. "It looks awful. You should wear something that looks better on you." is BAD. Replying to an invitation with "I`ll try to open that day!" is fine. "Thanks, but I really don`t like parties." is not.
Straight and/or sarcastic are bad personality traits.

But maybe the first few examples are kimochiwarui-hiku, yeah?

Can you give me your versions of these?

Think of it literally like taking a bit of a step back. Being too direct, even when obvious, can make people sort of "pull away" from you.

Basically, if a friend started being direct - I would read it as the friendship being over. They no longer give a crap about maintaining a relationship. If they did intend to keep the friendship going but were being direct - it`s 性格悪い.

Nyororin, with your closest friend, have you ever felt an inability to open up to, or be shown their true colors, due to cultural limitations?

Not really. I have always found everyone to be pretty open *if the steps of friendship have been followed*. Sometimes people are almost TOO open once you are past a certain point. I have been involved in conversations that are flat out uncomfortable, but I was clearly the only one involved who felt that way. I mean things that feel like they shouldn`t be shared with ANYONE were tossed out like it was nothing.

How about with regular friends?

I don`t really feel a desire to have deep private conversations with close acquaintances, so can`t really say. Asking private things of someone at that level of friendship would be really cringe worthy to begin with. (I would expect them to 引く) :P

[dogsbody70]

You know a real close friend is someone that you should be able to be totally honest with.

Someone you can confide in and know it will go no further.

A real friend is priceless--.

The others?

are they worth having?

[evanny]

yes. they are. just because someone is not a close friend doesn't mean you can't have a good time with them.
or receive/give favours. most of the people in this world work at jobs they got just because they knew somebody who was already in the company.

so please. stop this BS that only "true" friends matter. world doesn't work that way.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

To me, this feels like the same kind of thing. He doesn`t want to outright say that he doesn`t want to go. You`ve been kind enough to invite him. You know how he will feel about it (the fear you speak of) and have extended your invitation. To me, it would read as a completely "friendly" exchange. His view: You know he won`t come, but extend the invitation because he is a friend and it would be impolite not to. He replies with a polite response that shows he appreciates the offer, without saying anything offensive about not wanting to go.

what you fail to understand is that we see it as lack of courage to say the truth to their friend, which in our eyes makes him appear not trust worthy. How can I realy on someone that can't be straight with me in casual situation. That is no friend, that is bs. It has nothing to do with being polite, but having no spine to say anything straight up. And this issue goes very deep in Japanese culture, along with "saying things around" as it is "polite", which creates more problems that you could ever imagine.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Being too direct, even when obvious, can make people sort of "pull away" from you.

What kind of people are you surrounding yourself with? This is exactly what pisses me off in many people. Learn how to take the truth. You might just appreciate it in a long run.

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

You know a real close friend is someone that you should be able to be totally honest with.

Someone you can confide in and know it will go no further.

A real friend is priceless--.

The others?

are they worth having?

there, she has nailed it.

[mousee09]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

what you fail to understand is that we see it as lack of courage to say the truth to their friend, which in our eyes makes him appear not trust worthy. How can I realy on someone that can't be straight with me in casual situation. That is no friend, that is bs. It has nothing to do with being polite, but having no spine to say anything straight up. And this issue goes very deep in Japanese culture, along with "saying things around" as it is "polite", which creates more problems that you could ever imagine.

yeah i agree with your statement. I know that it part of Japanese culture there is nothing you can really do about it. but it still very frustating to have to deal with people like that.

I can understand that at first you do know the the person so it make since to not be COMPLETELY open with that person..that is just common sense i think. But how long do you go completely telling little white lies just to keep the peace with someone. If you dont really like the person enough to tell atleast SOME of your real emotions and thoughts then what the point of talking and being around that person.
I understand that it takes time to get to know someone but to always try to hide your emotions or thoughts from the person, your not trying to be a friend or future close friend at all that what i interpet it to be...

I dont know that just my two cents.

[ryuurui]

Exactly. Also, note that if one is not an easily trusting person (he/she does not easily trust someone) it usually means that that person canot be trusted as well. See, with human relations is like this. You come forward and offer your trust by revealing your true self. If it is not appreciated you simply forget that person and move along. With time, you can tell with greater ease (sense it) who is worth and who is not worth wasting your time on. Consequently, if you do open yourself, people tend to trust you, as they see you being transparent. Lastly, an old Polish saying goes "Przyjaciol poznaje sie w biedzie" - which means that you learn who is your real friend in need. I dont need around me people who require a nappy to be changed each time they have to be assertive.

[RealJames]

I think there are a couple fronts going on here.

I believe Nyororin understands how it is perceived by us, she's simply trying to explain how it's perceived by the other side.
I'm not sure if she's taking one side or the other to be honest, just being objective.

I am trying to explain that for westerners even "strong" or "good" friendships with Japanese people tend to feel relatively superficial and weak. Mainly for the reasons that have been delved into quite well.

The fact is that regardless of how we feel about it, it's not going to change the way they do, this isn't our turf, and that you gotta play by house-rules.

Nyororin you said "I (Nyororin) think the biggest cultural difference is that you (James, or westerners) feel the need to get the truth on this kind of thing."
And I agree, this is something that's very difficult for westerners to get past, we've got it drilled in our head that any relationship without honest truth is junk.

Something else I think we need to consider, is that a very good friendship in BOTH Japan and the west, is one in which verbal communication is almost unnecessary, where we just understand each other.

I want to tell a small story of the most hurtful tatemae I received, before I learned to just not believe anything good anyone tells me.

As some of you know, I stopped working for big English conversation schools because they're garbage and went independent, about a year before I did that I asked a lot of my students to describe the "idea English conversation school", I didn't tell them I was actually going to do it. I recorded all their ideas, crunched numbers for feasibility, and then when I saw I could make it work, I decided to do t.
At this point there were about 15 students who I had been teaching weekly for just over 2 years.
I told them I was going to do it, exactly where, and the exact details of it.
I didn't invite any of them to come, I knew they'd feel pressured to lie and say they'd come even if they wouldn't, I'd been in Japan for 2 years after all, I knew that much.
A few of them DID tell me they would come though, out of their own volition, with no pressure from me. I even said they didn't have to do that just because I was their teacher and I'd completely understand if they were more comfortable staying at the school where I had been teaching (Nova, eww).
They insisted they actually did want to come, at this point I foolishly believed them.
Long story short, they each gave me the weakest transparent excuses at the last minute, and none joined.
It's not all bad though, about 4 months later a dozen or so students I had been teaching, who left Nova before I had a chance to tell them I was going solo, ended up finding me and we picked up where we left off.

That amazed me, why the hell even bother throwing tatemae out there when it's not necessary to do so? To appear as being nicer than they really are? To give me false hopes? In the long run they come off a lot worse than if they'd just kept their mouths shut.

[dogsbody70]

it is deceitful to lead some one up the garden path. Too scared to be honest and to say No--Outright.

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

Exactly. Also, note that if one is not an easily trusting person (he/she does not easily trust someone) it usually means that that person canot be trusted as well.

Wrong, If one person isn't able to trust as easily, there are either personal experiences that forced that person to stop trusting in people, or cultural situations (like the ones you've been talking about), being unable to trust in people, has nothing to do with being reliable.