Japanophile - and other open discussion

[MMM]

This is an fascinating conversation. It is interesting to see what different cultures regard as requirements for a friendship.

I can't speak for younger people, or for women, but it seems like often times my friendships with male friends in Japan require much less maintenance than my male friends in the US. Even in my 30s I see people my age, or even older in the US being much more needy in terms of validation of the friendship.

With some of my friends in Japan I only contact them if I am coming. Others I send notes online to maybe once every month or two.

Some of my friends in America tell me that I couldn't possibly consider these people good friends, as we don't have constant contact and I don't keep up with their personal lives on a constant basis.

However, it feels very comfortable to me to be able to see these friends in Japan once a year or so and pick up right where we left off. It seems like this is less probable in the West.

[ryuurui]

I have few really close friends, and as you said MMM, we do not need to see each other for years and nothing changes. That is a unique bond.

Godwine - holy cow that looks wicked! When I was 15-17 I was building the same thing. I absolutely loved it, especially the creating part. Man I woulod love to see your project in rl. Also, perhaps, if you need calligraphy for some buildings' sign boards, if time permits I could try to help. Lots of respect man, I know from personal experience how much time and patience it requires. Man, N scale is so tiny...Mine was H0.

[ColinHowell]

Originally Posted by godwine

In another thread, I mentioned that I started working on a miniature model of Tokyo using available n-Scale parts

It looks like someone is already doing something similar:

Tokyo in N Scale

I am not going to stop my little project, but I probably will just make it "partial" tokyo and maybe "migrate" Yokohama closer in my little project.

You could always go for Z scale.

Just make sure that your home is not included in the model.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

what you fail to understand is that we see it as lack of courage to say the truth to their friend, which in our eyes makes him appear not trust worthy. How can I realy on someone that can't be straight with me in casual situation. That is no friend, that is bs. It has nothing to do with being polite, but having no spine to say anything straight up.

The point I am trying to make is that it does NOT make the person shifty. It is not a sign of their lack of trustworthiness. It is a cultural quirk. It isn`t that they have no spine to say things directly - people just don`t say things directly.

And this issue goes very deep in Japanese culture, along with "saying things around" as it is "polite", which creates more problems that you could ever imagine.

Problems between who? People who both know and follow these rules of social interaction? Or between one person who does and one who doesn`t?

What kind of people are you surrounding yourself with? This is exactly what pisses me off in many people. Learn how to take the truth. You might just appreciate it in a long run.

The truth can be read without coming out and saying it directly. There are a thousand ways to convey the message. I am pretty happy with my circle of friends, so clearly am not having any problems.

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But how long do you go completely telling little white lies just to keep the peace with someone. If you dont really like the person enough to tell atleast SOME of your real emotions and thoughts then what the point of talking and being around that person.
I understand that it takes time to get to know someone but to always try to hide your emotions or thoughts from the person, your not trying to be a friend or future close friend at all that what i interpet it to be...

The thing is, they`re not white lies. The other person expects to be understood. The listener who is not accustomed to that sort of social interaction misinterprets the meaning based on the rules of social interaction that they are familiar with.
Something comparable would be, say, an inside joke. If inside your group of friends, saying A means B - someone from outside your group who hears A is going to take it to mean A. Not B, like all your other friends. Going from western social rules to Japanese rules is like this. You`ve just jumped into a group of people who have a ton of inside words and actions that you just don`t know. So you take things at face value and end up hurt when they don`t mean what you`d expected them to. But to everyone else, it was perfectly clear.

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I believe Nyororin understands how it is perceived by us, she's simply trying to explain how it's perceived by the other side.
I'm not sure if she's taking one side or the other to be honest, just being objective.

That`s pretty much the case. I don`t want to see either side bashed or raised up as being "the right way", as there is no RIGHT WAY. Social interaction is linked very strongly to culture. Something that seems frustrating to someone of one culture is perfectly normal to someone of another. People tend to have tunnel vision when it comes to cultural points that are as strongly ingrained as the interactions between friends, and are unable to see that even if it`s not the pattern they are accustomed to it is still valid.

Nyororin you said "I (Nyororin) think the biggest cultural difference is that you (James, or westerners) feel the need to get the truth on this kind of thing."
And I agree, this is something that's very difficult for westerners to get past, we've got it drilled in our head that any relationship without honest truth is junk.

I`m really glad that you got what I was trying to say there. Reading it over after posting left me wondering if it might not be misunderstood as some kind of shot at you (which it wasn`t). The thing is, the truth is there. It just isn`t said outright. If you`re used to it not being said outright, you are more attuned to subtle clues and can see the truth very clearly even if the other person doesn`t say it directly. I find that in most cases, saying it would be overkill. Think of a couple who are carrying bags with "Congratulations!" written on them, hugging and kissing, marveling at their new shiny rings, and talking about how strange it is for her to now have his last name. Would you need them to say "We just got married" to pick up on it?

That amazed me, why the hell even bother throwing tatemae out there when it's not necessary to do so? To appear as being nicer than they really are? To give me false hopes? In the long run they come off a lot worse than if they'd just kept their mouths shut.

Actually, this one doesn`t really hit me as a tatemae thing. I am pretty willing to guess that they really DID want to go. There is a whole bunch of stupid paperwork they have to go through telling them not to, under any circumstances, for ANY reason, take private lessons from a current or former teacher. All their tickets will be rendered invalid, and in some cases they will lose their lessons (but still have to pay for them). Nova got in trouble for this crap later on, but back years ago... It was to the level of losing 10+万 worth of lessons for just meeting with a teacher outside of the school.
With some of the crap I have heard Nova did, it wouldn`t surprise me if the lesson was taped and the students personally given a strong hint about what would happen if they went.
When it comes down to choosing a large lump of money or you, I am sure they would have felt awful outright saying that they`d choose the money. (Hence the pathetic excuses.)
This is not even mentioning that a relationship that has started as a money based exchange (teacher, etc) has a lot of trouble moving beyond that for many different reasons.

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it is deceitful to lead some one up the garden path. Too scared to be honest and to say No--Outright.

But what if everyone involved knows what is going on? I think the people who are giving the hint (that everyone else would get without question) but not saying it outright are going to be very surprised to have someone follow them up that garden path.

It isn`t a matter of deception. It`s a different way of interacting that is perceived that way when pushed to line up with the western style of interaction. I think that most people in Japan would be absolutely shocked to hear that their "normal" way of interacting was hurtful to someone - that is not what is intended at all.

[Nameless]

Asking something out of current conversation's context, ( if it isn't too inconsiderate), does anyone here like 軍歌?, If so which is your favorite?

I will try to learn more about this topic asap, I am a little bit obsessed with war music lately.

[godwine]

If you guys are interested in those small scale model, you should chek this out:

'2 Sides of Japan' modular Japanese N scale in Australia home page

This is an even crazier model, it won multiple awards already.

I will not give up on my little project, but its slow progress, a lot is going on lately, i just didn't have the time. I start putting some structures together, but never got around to do anything with the layout. The Yamanote train is still in its box. I will attempt to post picture when i get in to full build mode

About friendship, first, to set the context, a bit about my background. I am HK born Chinese. I have an uncle that is Japanese, its not really an uncle per say, one of my mom's side relative is married to him, and it just so happened that when they visit HK, they become very close to my family, so as far as I am concern, he is my uncle and his son is my cousin. Anyways, I lived in Japan between age 7-9, +/-, 6 months as I don't remember the exact duration. Migrated to Canada with my family in 1989, been here since.

Friendship... so I have friends pretty much all over the world, mostly Asian, but I do have friends from different background, as some of my other post suggested, one of my best friend is Italian.

Even with these best friend, I don't see them very often. My 2 best friends(The said Italian and a Taiwanese) are always in touch with me, but only over emails, I see them once a week only because we train at the same Karate dojo, but otherwise, our communication is only limited to electronic.

I have another really good friend, he is no longer in Canada, he moved back to HK for a better job and got married there. The last time we spoke was 3 weeks ago, again, over email. And before that, probably sometime around July of last year. But we manage to maintain that feeling of "close friends". Our last correspondence 3 weeks ago was on the topic of I needing him to locate something for me in HK, while he had similar request for me to find him something in Toronto

These are about the 3 friends that I think are the closest, and we share our deepest secret with each other, including our view over religion and politics, me being the more aggressive and opinionated one. If I am to cheat on my wife, these 3 guys will know it before it even happen... we are that close, but yet we don't hang out on a regular basis, we don't even talk on a regular basis, but deep in our heart, we know we will be there for each other if s**t hits the fan....

I am the kind of guy that have about 200 people on my MSN list and 300+ friends on my facebook list, none of which I actually talk to much, they are really "friends" i mean, as far as I am concern, as long as you know someone, even if you have only met them once, they can be your friend.

In my culture, friendship can be a very very thin relation between 2 people. People that don't care if I die tomorrow or I get married tomorrow.

I remeber at my wedding, both side parents introduce a bunch of "friends" that we have never met before, people that don't really care about us enough to worry whether we are marrying the right person

That said, i strongly agree, friendship can be as simple as seeing the potential of needing help from a particular person, the relation can be built on that... it doesn't have to be a strong bond. I don't think there is such thing as "True Friend", at least I don't believe there to be such thing. Its black or white, you are either friend or not, there is no scale.. some friends are willing to do more for you some are more selfish.... Friends are just friends, there are GOOD friends and bad friends I suppose..

As far as how open i am, I think i am the type that give 75% trust to people around me... i don't see anyhthing wrong with people giving 100% trust or no trust at all, its their choice, but trust has to be in place in order for a relationship to work.. same goes for a romatic relationship, or a owner/pet relation (just look at how a trusting dog behave vs a non trusting one)...

I don't know what i am talking about anymore, brain not functioning right lately....

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

It is a cultural quirk. It isn`t that they have no spine to say things directly - people just don`t say things directly.

The truth can be read without coming out and saying it directly. There are a thousand ways to convey the message. I am pretty happy with my circle of friends, so clearly am not having any problems.

Hence the suicides. Of course you don't have any problems, you guys do not talk about them lol. It is very common in Japan to not to talk about something and pretend it doesn't exist. And I could tell you more but I will let you enjoy your shell. You feel comfortable with it, so why bother.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

Hence the suicides. Of course you don't have any problems, you guys do not talk about them lol. It is very common in Japan to not to talk about something and pretend it doesn't exist. And I could tell you more but I will let you enjoy your shell. You feel comfortable with it, so why bother.

Ah yes, because suicides are so incredibly low in every other country... Especially in nearby countries that are well known for being extremely straight and blunt, like South Korea or Taiwan. Oh, wait, South Korea is higher than Japan and Taiwan is comparable.

Or maybe, you know, there are OTHER things at play raising the suicide rate... Like a culture that is more accepting of it as a way of dealing with problems, and a high pressure lifestyle.

I am totally sure now that you think that the Japanese way of doing things is significantly inferior to your way of doing things. I don`t see why you have decided that I am living in some shell, and why you feel you can judge my personal relationships with such accuracy.

If you want to write off people because they do not follow the exact same patterns of interaction as you, your loss I suppose.

[ryuurui]

oh sorry my bad, i thouhgt that honest social interactions were the usual way to go, but I guess I was wrong. I did not say that Japanese way of thinking is inferior, I simply do not agree with certain paterns. We all judge people - you did as well by saying that I think that Japanese people's way of thinking is inferior, did you not lol? Mind you, you even followed "my" way of thinking by being open and saying what you think of me. Ironic, innit.

[godwine]

Opening up a new topic to divert some flame

Around standard of living and taxation

I have several questions....

1. What is the personal income tax rate in Japan?
2. What is the coporation tax rate?
3. Sales tax i 5% right?

The reason I ask this is, my experience of Japan is that its standard of living is comparable to Toronto Canada, I base this off of the cost of food and accomodation for the most part. An average application programmer here will make approximately 55-60K a year, after tax and stuff, they can expect to bring home approximately 35-40K, and people live comfortably with that kind of income

What is the average cost for transportation for someone that live in say Omiya (Saitama) and commute daily to work to Tokyo? I travel similar distance to work myself, and I pay an average of approximately 220 a month, not including the gas involved to get me to my starting station daily.

One thing that make it suck in Japan will probably be housing, 400K canadian can get you a decent townhouse around the Toronto area thats approximately 1400-1600 sq ft. I don't think 400K Canadian equiv will buy you spaces like that, not even comparable