Commercialization of Japan

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

The vast majority of people I meet shamelessly admit to their hobbies being shopping and talking with friends in cafes, and perhaps one or two other less popular activities.

As you stated in the OP, your research methods may not be the most scientific, and I do not fault you on that. You are using the means you have.

I would agree that a majority of Japanese will give canned answers to "what are your hobbies?" when asked. Popular answers are "sleeping," "shopping," "video games," "talking with friends," "listening to music", etc.

However that doesn't mean these are their actual hobbies. I find many Japanese people would rather give a canned answer than the "real" answer, as there is less threat of a negative (or even neutral or surprised positive) reaction.

Again, to give an alternative perspective, I would say that commercially, Japan is the most hobby-centric society I have ever seen. How else can specialty stores like the ones that Miss Misa just posted on her thread not only stay in business, but thrive?

Whether it be niche fashion, comics, artwork, model trains, robotics, make-up, temple-hopping, you name it, Japan has a subculture of talented and intelligent people who are followed by dozens if not hundreds if not thousands to strive to reach their level.

Go to any bookstore and see the massive variety of magazines on the shelves. There must be 10 times as many magazine titles published monthly in Japan as there are in the US, with half the population. How could this industry have lasted this long if peoples hobbies REALLY are "chatting with friends" and "going shopping"?

The reality is that Japanese aren't as forthcoming with their hobbies to people that aren't very close, or that don't share the same interest. Anyone who is interested in something you are not is considered odd, so it is easier to say "listening to music" than it is to say "practicing gothic-lolita make-up" or "taking photographs of shinkansen" (which is a beautiful subculture on its own... actually fueled by JR partially by having different trains that go only on certain routes).

I made a couple buddies at my most local shot bar when I lived in Hyogo. At first I just knew these guys as hard workers who got up in the morning, went to work, came home, had a few beers, and repeat the next day. One made desserts at a bakery, and the other was a salaryman at a plastics company. The bartender was (and is) a talkative guy, so it wasn't long before I learned of his hobby (interest, obsession) with American cowboy shows of the 50s and 60s. He could rattle of the names of actors from Rawhide, Gunsmoke, The Rifleman and shows I had never heard of. However, it took many months before I learned that the dessert man was a hardcore foreign film fan, and the plastics man was really into everything French... food, wine, culture, movies, language, etc.

So my point would be, just because people are not forthcoming with their actual hobbies or interests doesn't mean they don't have them. I think the sheer magnitude of niche industries is a testament to that.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by RealJames

perhaps I should have been more clear on that point, thanks

well commercialization means something is used for profit,
it generally infers that it's at the expense of quality

when used in context with a country I presume for it to infer that it's at the expense of culture, or more popularly "it's roots"

in Japan's case, as it got more and more wealthy, it's people got less interested in it's traditions and cultures

The context I took ryuurui's quote from was how young people may not understand the virtue of calligraphy in the same way they might have in the past, presumably due to said commercialization

Calligraphy is a spiritual art. To understand it, one needs to drop the pace of life, reflect on things, and forget the rush. Today, life is led at light speed with no (or very little) regard for not only other people, but also ourselves. Social interactions are down to twitter and 140 characters maximum, keitai's, or garbage (like TV, which is another way of passive existence). How people who live easy lives can relate to something that is far beyond every-day perception. Even in the calligraphy world majority of old people do not understand this art at all. I bet 80% do not get it, they just do it as they have nothing else to do. How many of them reach 師範 and stops studying, where 師範 is where it all just begins. Their knowledge of　書 is also superficial, and often times I find myself explaining virtually basic terms. So it is more of a "sunday" hobby for many, which is better than doing nothing at all, or drinking in 居酒屋, don't get me wrong.

I give you an example. I was consulting text of my calligraphy terms dictionary with my teacher, and he told me openly, that those terms I am talking about are not known to many of the calligraphy instructors in Japan. It simply goes too deep. What he said made me think, and scared me a bit, too. I realised how lucky i am to find a teacher that actually is in love with calligraphy and studies it diligently.

That is the angle i was coming from.

MMM - wanna bet that most of the reading in Japan is done on trains or while waiting on the first train after a night of 残業 at the locval convinience store? Japanese don't have the same hobbies? I am not so sure man, it is a society of followers, they follow the group and any deviation is saught as odd. You might be right though, that those who have "odd" hobbies,, do not talk about it as they are afraid that they will be cast away.

Anyway, this is a global issue, not just in Japan.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

MMM - wanna bet that most of the reading in Japan is done on trains or while waiting on the first train after a night of 残業 at the locval convinience store? Japanese don't have the same hobbies? I am not so sure man, it is a society of followers, they follow the group and any deviation is saught as odd. You might be right though, that those who have "odd" hobbies,, do not talk about it as they are afraid that they will be cast away.

Anyway, this is a global issue, not just in Japan.

Yes, much reading is done on trains or in conbinis or bookstores.

But at least people in Japan still read. It is one of the most well-read societies in the world.

Every generation laments the actions of generation younger.

I find this overwrought generalization that Japan is a "society of followers" a little played out and confusing to those that don't really know what it means. Deviation may be seen as odd, but it doesn't mean deviation doesn't happen. That was my point of the last post. Just because I don't tell you what my true interests are, doesn't mean I don't have them.

I think it is a bit like sexual fantasies and the west. Most people in the US do not casually discuss their sexual fantasies or fetishes, even with close friends. It's a bit like hobbies in Japan. Everyone has them, but they aren't discussed openly.

I don't think it is necessarily a fear of being cast away, as much as a fear of bringing too much attention to oneself.

I knew a high school girl when I was teaching in Japan that had a fascination with Australia. She was one of the hardest working students of English I knew, so I made helping her get to Australia for a study abroad a personal goal of mine. We were able to get it done, and she spent a semester in Sydney. The funny thing was, many of her classmates didn't know she was going until she was gone. She didn't want them to know... and I couldn't understand why. Now I think I understand a little better.

[JohnBraden]

Originally Posted by MMM

As you stated in the OP, your research methods may not be the most scientific, and I do not fault you on that. You are using the means you have.

I would agree that a majority of Japanese will give canned answers to "what are your hobbies?" when asked. Popular answers are "sleeping," "shopping," "video games," "talking with friends," "listening to music", etc.

However that doesn't mean these are their actual hobbies. I find many Japanese people would rather give a canned answer than the "real" answer, as there is less threat of a negative (or even neutral or surprised positive) reaction.

Again, to give an alternative perspective, I would say that commercially, Japan is the most hobby-centric society I have ever seen. How else can specialty stores like the ones that Miss Misa just posted on her thread not only stay in business, but thrive?

Whether it be niche fashion, comics, artwork, model trains, robotics, make-up, temple-hopping, you name it, Japan has a subculture of talented and intelligent people who are followed by dozens if not hundreds if not thousands to strive to reach their level.

Go to any bookstore and see the massive variety of magazines on the shelves. There must be 10 times as many magazine titles published monthly in Japan as there are in the US, with half the population. How could this industry have lasted this long if peoples hobbies REALLY are "chatting with friends" and "going shopping"?

The reality is that Japanese aren't as forthcoming with their hobbies to people that aren't very close, or that don't share the same interest. Anyone who is interested in something you are not is considered odd, so it is easier to say "listening to music" than it is to say "practicing gothic-lolita make-up" or "taking photographs of shinkansen" (which is a beautiful subculture on its own... actually fueled by JR partially by having different trains that go only on certain routes).

I made a couple buddies at my most local shot bar when I lived in Hyogo. At first I just knew these guys as hard workers who got up in the morning, went to work, came home, had a few beers, and repeat the next day. One made desserts at a bakery, and the other was a salaryman at a plastics company. The bartender was (and is) a talkative guy, so it wasn't long before I learned of his hobby (interest, obsession) with American cowboy shows of the 50s and 60s. He could rattle of the names of actors from Rawhide, Gunsmoke, The Rifleman and shows I had never heard of. However, it took many months before I learned that the dessert man was a hardcore foreign film fan, and the plastics man was really into everything French... food, wine, culture, movies, language, etc.

So my point would be, just because people are not forthcoming with their actual hobbies or interests doesn't mean they don't have them. I think the sheer magnitude of niche industries is a testament to that.

Very interesting observation. It is unfortunate that someone who is an avid hobbyist may not meet another right away simply because they are not as forthcoming with their predilections. Sounds like it would be somewhat difficult to find people who share your same interest if you're just there visiting, like me, for example.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by JohnBraden

Very interesting observation. It is unfortunate that someone who is an avid hobbyist may not meet another right away simply because they are not as forthcoming with their predilections. Sounds like it would be somewhat difficult to find people who share your same interest if you're just there visiting, like me, for example.

Thankfully you are visiting in 2011, and not 1991. The Internet makes it much easier to find people interested in the exact same things you are.

[JohnBraden]

You do have a major valid point there.

[ryuurui]

Originally Posted by MMM

Yes, much reading is done on trains or in conbinis or bookstores.

But at least people in Japan still read. It is one of the most well-read societies in the world.

Every generation laments the actions of generation younger.

I find this overwrought generalization that Japan is a "society of followers" a little played out and confusing to those that don't really know what it means. Deviation may be seen as odd, but it doesn't mean deviation doesn't happen. That was my point of the last post. Just because I don't tell you what my true interests are, doesn't mean I don't have them.

I think it is a bit like sexual fantasies and the west. Most people in the US do not casually discuss their sexual fantasies or fetishes, even with close friends. It's a bit like hobbies in Japan. Everyone has them, but they aren't discussed openly.

I don't think it is necessarily a fear of being cast away, as much as a fear of bringing too much attention to oneself.

I knew a high school girl when I was teaching in Japan that had a fascination with Australia. She was one of the hardest working students of English I knew, so I made helping her get to Australia for a study abroad a personal goal of mine. We were able to get it done, and she spent a semester in Sydney. The funny thing was, many of her classmates didn't know she was going until she was gone. She didn't want them to know... and I couldn't understand why. Now I think I understand a little better.

I know what you mean. Well, in Europe we don;t have issues with discussing sexual fantasies and what have ya, but i noticed that (thorugh Americans that i have met) that Americans care too much about what others say about them. Or maybe it's me, as i reallly dont give a damn. Though i get what you meant by that.

The shoolgirl bit reminded me about something interesting I came accross when I was writing a book about Japan, about kids at grammar school learning foreign languages. If one is fluent then others will not envy him, as it would happen in western part of the world, but will treat him as a weirdo. I still strongly belive that this is going deep itto Japanese tendency to isolation, group-based interactions, and individualism being a subject taboo　(which consequently leads to serious complexes).

Well-read as in they read a lot? But are those books any good? Remember that they need to read as if they dont they will forget how to very quick.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

As you stated in the OP, your research methods may not be the most scientific, and I do not fault you on that. You are using the means you have.

I would agree that a majority of Japanese will give canned answers to "what are your hobbies?" when asked. Popular answers are "sleeping," "shopping," "video games," "talking with friends," "listening to music", etc.

However that doesn't mean these are their actual hobbies. I find many Japanese people would rather give a canned answer than the "real" answer, as there is less threat of a negative (or even neutral or surprised positive) reaction.

Again, to give an alternative perspective, I would say that commercially, Japan is the most hobby-centric society I have ever seen. How else can specialty stores like the ones that Miss Misa just posted on her thread not only stay in business, but thrive?

Whether it be niche fashion, comics, artwork, model trains, robotics, make-up, temple-hopping, you name it, Japan has a subculture of talented and intelligent people who are followed by dozens if not hundreds if not thousands to strive to reach their level.

Go to any bookstore and see the massive variety of magazines on the shelves. There must be 10 times as many magazine titles published monthly in Japan as there are in the US, with half the population. How could this industry have lasted this long if peoples hobbies REALLY are "chatting with friends" and "going shopping"?

The reality is that Japanese aren't as forthcoming with their hobbies to people that aren't very close, or that don't share the same interest. Anyone who is interested in something you are not is considered odd, so it is easier to say "listening to music" than it is to say "practicing gothic-lolita make-up" or "taking photographs of shinkansen" (which is a beautiful subculture on its own... actually fueled by JR partially by having different trains that go only on certain routes).

I made a couple buddies at my most local shot bar when I lived in Hyogo. At first I just knew these guys as hard workers who got up in the morning, went to work, came home, had a few beers, and repeat the next day. One made desserts at a bakery, and the other was a salaryman at a plastics company. The bartender was (and is) a talkative guy, so it wasn't long before I learned of his hobby (interest, obsession) with American cowboy shows of the 50s and 60s. He could rattle of the names of actors from Rawhide, Gunsmoke, The Rifleman and shows I had never heard of. However, it took many months before I learned that the dessert man was a hardcore foreign film fan, and the plastics man was really into everything French... food, wine, culture, movies, language, etc.

So my point would be, just because people are not forthcoming with their actual hobbies or interests doesn't mean they don't have them. I think the sheer magnitude of niche industries is a testament to that.

You're entirely right that I didn't do much probing beyond the canned answers.
The truth is very likely to lie beyond that and show many more interesting and very likely culturally-related hobbies and interests.

Conversely, the canned answers which are chosen do expose a certain aspect of the culture, true or not.

I like the shot-bar story, and I've also had several experiences when getting to know people better that they divulge more about themselves.

@Ryuurui, you're entirely right that it's not a problem specific to Japan.

[GoNative]

To me commercialism is about getting people to buy stuff they don't really need. It's all about getting you to buy stuff you want rather than need (and creating that want through advertising and marketing). Like no one needs to spend 100's of thousands of dollars on a car but millions of people around the world want to have such cars (for whatever reason). This to me is what commercialism is all about. With this definition I didn't find Japan to be overly commericialised. Most people I knew (even if they were quite rich) lived pretty simple lifestyles without being ostentatious with their wealth.

That said though in the area I lived if the Japanese got into something they generally didn't do it by halves. If it was camping they'd turn up to camping sites better equipped than just about any campers I've ever seen in Aus. I mean they seriously took camping to a new level. Same with hiking. Even if they were just heading out for a few hours walk they'd be kitted out almost as well as I've seen people heading out on extended expeditions! They would have all the latest gadgets and gear.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by GoNative

That said though in the area I lived if the Japanese got into something they generally didn't do it by halves. If it was camping they'd turn up to camping sites better equipped than just about any campers I've ever seen in Aus. I mean they seriously took camping to a new level. Same with hiking. Even if they were just heading out for a few hours walk they'd be kitted out almost as well as I've seen people heading out on extended expeditions! They would have all the latest gadgets and gear.

I think that`s pretty much true everywhere in Japan.
It`s part of the fun, I think. Gathering the perfect "set" for something is half the fun and adventure. People *like* to spend money, but once you`re in the work force there is a LOT of pressure to save it for things in the future - house, car, children`s education, etc. Finding something with "equipment" is an excuse to spend money as it isn`t frivolous.

It`s also not just with camping, hiking, or outdoor activities. Starting a new hobby of any sort is a great time to gather all the "equipment" you need. It`s something fun in itself.