Patriotism

[Kayci]

Originally Posted by evanny

it isn't much as bashing as simply making you see that their motivation is different than you think. if you think it is wrong to enlist and go to war just to feed your family and to hope for future education afterwards - then it was bashing. however bashing in your point of you.

i don't care what their reasons really are for doing it. people kill each other over a loaf of bread also, so in comparison it is not that bad.

No...just tired of people thinking they know the American soldier's mind when they are not even American.

People enlist for all sorts of reasons. Loyalty, to feed their families, to get some discipline, etc.

[dxr]

Originally Posted by evanny

or "those fuckers took down my towers and my short temper tells me to go and kill some people"


my country has sent only like some 125+ special soldiers. by special i mean - they were ready to kill each other for a chance to go there, because it pays really well if they do get to go. so only the best were sent - and yes, even thou they all have university diploma (most soldiers have, unless you do you can't achieve anything in army here), it still pays better.. its like for immigrants going to another country to earn for the family.

So wait, you're saying that all other reasons are stupid, but going for money is ok? Am I missing something here?

Also, what country are you from?

[dogsbody70]

during world war one and two anyone who was a conscientious objector was punished in some way. Refusing to fight for your own country is seen as betrayal and cowardly.


we used to have National service-- all men had to do two years in the Forces.

we have to have Military for defence apart from anything else.

Soldiers Have to obey orders. Deserters could be shot.

It is governments that send our troops out to different countries. They even take them from the reserved forces-- territorials etc.

[evanny]

Originally Posted by dxr

So wait, you're saying that all other reasons are stupid, but going for money is ok? Am I missing something here?

Also, what country are you from?

i am saying it is stupid to believe they are fighting for their government or "freedom" and "justice" and bullshit like that.
..............
i must stress that all my posts are aimed at the conflict in the middle east. Conflict in which USA soil faces no real threat.

however i am well aware that when defending ones country then reasons like "freedom", "family's safety" and "government" are the main ones. just don't go saying that the same reasons are now also what leads soldiers in general to Iraq. NO. it's fucking money or revenge.

[DragonNL]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Refusing to fight for your own country is seen as betrayal and cowardly.

That's ridiculous... Nobody swore an oath to their country or anything like that..

[RobinMask]

Originally Posted by DragonNL

That's ridiculous... Nobody swore an oath to their country or anything like that..

I looked at Dogs' quote in context, I think she made a typo and meant 'was' instead of 'is'. If this was what she meant then her statement is quite accurate, as there was a stigma during the world wars about able-bodied men who refused/wouldn't fight for their countries. I can give you several WW1 propaganda songs, poems and various WW2-based films/shows that would back this mentality up.

[DragonNL]

Yes I know Dogs' meant 'was'. But still it's ridiculous to be called an traitor when you never swore an oath to your country.

[crime60]

wow,,, strangely amazing, really... I can't really blame anyone on how they express it, for this subject is at a high level PERSONAL....
I don't really agree in relating patriotism to countries, PEOPLE build countries, shpeup histories, setup cultural ideas and so on... but then again we have GENERATIONS, I do hope that when I make a family and have kids of my own that they will growup being better than me in all aspects, I am not perfect nor my ideas, some times a comment from my 4 years old niece makes me skratch my head lol...
when a new generation rises, new ideas influenced by many factors emerge, factors like science, religion, life experience, even geography and climate... these ideas will somehow try to grow, even by force,,, it's what people in the Arab world is going through( Eygpt, Libya, Tunisia, ect... I am an Arab alright, and let me tell you that governments will try to feed you patriotism for their own good, just to secure their own benefits...I can't really go out loud and say most of the scientists of the ancient times where Arabs, because I lost that privilege... It hurts admitting it, but it is what it is, and it's learning in the hardest way...
Back to the subject,,, this is my own point of view, patriotisms backbone is achievements and contributions that a country add to mankind, so pardon me if I don't have it, because it's an equation that my country failed to deliver... for this I have no patriotism for the flag, because it doesn't represent me nor the government which cares none about me,,, but KNOW THIS, I have something greater,,, it's LOVE for my FAMILY, PEOPLE, LAND, and last but not least RELIGION...

[OsakaBlue]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

I think it's lovely that they [generally] love their country, and they are happy enough to call it the best in the world. That is not brainwashing. I also hear Americans being the most outspoken about the flaws in their own country, INSIDE their country. But when faced with critisism from outside I actually like how they all come together to defend their country.

I think it's weird of you to complain about needing a degree in America when your OMG SO PERFECT JAPAN is worse for it's super emphasis on education and getting a degree. Not that I think it's bad, I just think that's a pretty hypocritical thing to say.

I was a lot like this; I looked for every single flaw in my country and I remember when I left the US to travel around Europe and Asia, I thought, "Good riddance, America!". But I got bashed quite often by a lot of Europeans; even got kicked out of several bars for being an American. And I realized after a year of being away how grateful I was for having been born and raised in the US. I remember when I was a kid, I'd bash America a lot, despite being American; about Bush, the wars we flung ourselves into, etc. But I do stand by America and am extremely proud to be an American. A lot of us do have a great sense of patriotism, especially when we are bashed. We came together and all felt sorrow during 9/11, helped out those in need during the hurricanes and tornadoes we went through, and the list goes on. It's not brainwash; it's a sense of wanting to defend and honor your own. If you find fault in that, then that's a bit depressing.

And if you (not you Misa) guys think that the soldiers who join the military do it solely because they're upset about Iraq or are in need of money, you're sorely mistaken. Unless you have a lot of friends in the US military, I'd shut your mouth. They put their lives on the line for us every day. Not too many people would be willing to get sent to Iraq only to have themselves blown up with just a tag and flag sent to their husbands, wives, and family. Sure, some of them join for the wrong reasons but not all of them are nearly as shallow as you think they are, and it's pretty ignorant for you to think otherwise.

[tokusatsufan]

Wow,that's the first I've heard of Americans being kicked out of bars.