Patriotism

[DragonNL]

Originally Posted by OsakaBlue

And if you (not you Misa) guys think that the soldiers who join the military do it solely because they're upset about Iraq or are in need of money, you're sorely mistaken. Unless you have a lot of friends in the US military, I'd shut your mouth. They put their lives on the line for us every day. Not too many people would be willing to get sent to Iraq only to have themselves blown up with just a tag and flag sent to their husbands, wives, and family. Sure, some of them join for the wrong reasons but not all of them are nearly as shallow as you think they are, and it's pretty ignorant for you to think otherwise.

I agree that most soldiers have good reasons to join the military. However, their reasons are irrelevant. Joining the military is noble, but foolish. Conflict and hatred remain alive because of war. Killing a dozen enemy soldiers isn't going to acomplish anything. If you manage to stop your enemy, it's just a matter of time before another shows up. And if you manage to get yourself killed you wasted your life for nothing. Peace cannot be achieved thru war. The only way to achieve peace thru war is by killing every single individual on the entire planet. If there were other possibilities with war we would have achieved world peace centuries ago.

And sorry for saying this, but the people who think; "It's a shame what happens over there.. but whatever, as long as I'm protected.." Those people don't have a much better mindset than their enemy aggressors or their own soldiers. If you want the world to change for the better, you'll have to start with yourself. And that means doing what you can to help people in countries in conflict instead of approve or being indifferent to violence that gets them killed. It means being pro-peace instead of anti-war. It means DON'T start or join a fight.

[dxr]

Originally Posted by OsakaBlue

But I got bashed quite often by a lot of Europeans; even got kicked out of several bars for being an American.

Interesting. Where did you get kicked out of bars in Europe? They just walked up to you and asked you to leave without any other reason?

I have traveled all over the world. Most of it was done before Bush ran our name through the mud, but some during, and some presently. I have never really felt any negativity towards me being American.

When I lived in England, I got into a fight ONCE. But that was just because some guys were being rowdy towards me and my gf, I said something, and the fight commenced. Some slurs were thrown about me being American, but only after I spoke up.

The only other problem I had was in a bar in sweden. But it was a specific kind of bar and the people involved were just trying to be dick-ish. Funny, because I am Swedish decent

[Ryzorian]

You have to swear an oath to defend the us and the constitution when you join american military. It's not people who flunked 9th grade 3 times, they wouldn't get into army, you have to have a good education to get in because of all the high tech equipment. Most, and I mean 90% plus, join out of a calling to serve the us.

I'm ex army and was surrounded by those types of guys. You won't find anyone more patriotic than the American military.

Gonative; I don't give a flying fig about Palin. What I hate is a big over bloated government that spends too much and is involved in too much. I want it to stop, that's hardly "nutjobber" it's commen sense. Nobody can borrow 40 cents for every dollar they spend, it's insane.

[Kayci]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

You have to swear an oath to defend the us and the constitution when you join american military. It's not people who flunked 9th grade 3 times, they wouldn't get into army, you have to have a good education to get in because of all the high tech equipment. Most, and I mean 90% plus, join out of a calling to serve the us.

I'm ex army and was surrounded by those types of guys. You won't find anyone more patriotic than the American military.

Gonative; I don't give a flying fig about Palin. What I hate is a big over bloated government that spends too much and is involved in too much. I want it to stop, that's hardly "nutjobber" it's commen sense. Nobody can borrow 40 cents for every dollar they spend, it's insane.

Actually, its not your smarts, its how badly the military needs you.

In my senior year, they were considering taking me, even with my depression history from a few years before.

Now they wont touch me. A few years ago, they took a toothless man missing fingers, now they wont.

[OsakaBlue]

Originally Posted by tokusatsufan

Wow,that's the first I've heard of Americans being kicked out of bars.

Northern Italy, South Tirol. Yep.

[OsakaBlue]

Originally Posted by dxr

Interesting. Where did you get kicked out of bars in Europe? They just walked up to you and asked you to leave without any other reason?

I have traveled all over the world. Most of it was done before Bush ran our name through the mud, but some during, and some presently. I have never really felt any negativity towards me being American.

When I lived in England, I got into a fight ONCE. But that was just because some guys were being rowdy towards me and my gf, I said something, and the fight commenced. Some slurs were thrown about me being American, but only after I spoke up.

The only other problem I had was in a bar in sweden. But it was a specific kind of bar and the people involved were just trying to be dick-ish. Funny, because I am Swedish decent

I travelled throughout most of western and some eastern Europe and got a lot of crap for being American; but it was during the time Bush was president. Even the group I was with taunted me a lot (they were English and some were French). It was funny at first but I grew tired of it fast and as soon as I spoke up, I had several arguments with them. I got kicked out of a bar in South Tirol, which is in northern Italy; they spoke mainly Austrian German in that area. I was with a friend and we were speaking in English, and the bar owner basically said in German "Amerikanisch?" and I said "Ja." and he pointed towards the door and started yelling a bunch of slurs and told us to leave. And in France....well, they basically treated us the same way we treated a lot of them here. Like shit.

[OsakaBlue]

Originally Posted by DragonNL

I agree that most soldiers have good reasons to join the military. However, their reasons are irrelevant. Joining the military is noble, but foolish. Conflict and hatred remain alive because of war. Killing a dozen enemy soldiers isn't going to acomplish anything. If you manage to stop your enemy, it's just a matter of time before another shows up. And if you manage to get yourself killed you wasted your life for nothing. Peace cannot be achieved thru war. The only way to achieve peace thru war is by killing every single individual on the entire planet. If there were other possibilities with war we would have achieved world peace centuries ago.

And sorry for saying this, but the people who think; "It's a shame what happens over there.. but whatever, as long as I'm protected.." Those people don't have a much better mindset than their enemy aggressors or their own soldiers. If you want the world to change for the better, you'll have to start with yourself. And that means doing what you can to help people in countries in conflict instead of approve or being indifferent to violence that gets them killed. It means being pro-peace instead of anti-war. It means DON'T start or join a fight.

"Conflict and hatred remain alive because of war." - Obviously. However what will happen if you take away all of the US soldiers? We're left open for attack (which will undoubtedly happen), and then the US is wiped out. That's a great strategy/end sarcasm. Obviously we should be pro-peace, but it's not going to happen with the snap of a finger. War has been an ongoing process since the beginning of time. And 'people who don't join the military and think they're protected don't have a better mindset than their enemy agressors?' So basically we're just like the people who send out 7 year olds with bombs strapped to their bodies...You're talking to me as if I'm a war-mongering ape without the concept of peace. I'm not pro-war at all but I do respect those that put their life on the line for us; that's not foolish. And I certainly will not talk smack about them.

You're pro-peace (which is great) but also believe if peace could be achieved without war, it would have been done so centuries ago. You also think joining the military is foolish. You also think people who think they're protected and don't join the military are just as foolish as their enemy aggressors. So, what are you doing then? You're not in the military but do you think you're protected or do you think you're just as foolish as your enemy aggressors? Or do you not have a military or an enemy?

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

I looked at Dogs' quote in context, I think she made a typo and meant 'was' instead of 'is'. If this was what she meant then her statement is quite accurate, as there was a stigma during the world wars about able-bodied men who refused/wouldn't fight for their countries. I can give you several WW1 propaganda songs, poems and various WW2-based films/shows that would back this mentality up.

HI robin I haven't checked my previous post but I was referring to WW1 and TWO re conscientious objectors.

BBC - History - British History in depth: Shot at Dawn: Cowards, Traitors or Victims?

Many men here in UK worked down the Mines-- they were called Bevins boys. during a war anyone who refused to fight were considered conscientious objectors. They were punished as they had refused to fight for their country.

No doubt if there was another world war then there would be no choice-- Men would be called up to fight for their country unless they had important peacetimes activities.

Conscription in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia re conscription during ww1 AND TWO.


Since we no longer have national service-- there are not the same number of men joining the forces-- I do believe that even territorials are expected to take part in Action nowadays.

I wonder what happened in Japan during the wars-- were military allowed to refuse to take part? I doubt it very much.

[dxr]

Originally Posted by OsakaBlue

I was with a friend and we were speaking in English, and the bar owner basically said in German "Amerikanisch?" and I said "Ja." and he pointed towards the door and started yelling a bunch of slurs and told us to leave. And in France....well, they basically treated us the same way we treated a lot of them here. Like shit.

Ouch. Did you not try the "no, I'm Canadian" route?

At any rate, that sucks. But still kind of fascinating in a way.

[tokusatsufan]

I knew there was racism of this kind but I never knew it could be of such intensity.

Most people seem to love Hollywood and hate the actual people and that's the wrong way around.