what happens when puppies grow up?

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You have mentioned this before, and while I can see the unhappiness about dogs being sent to China, being as they do import for human consumption and experimental purposes, what is to say that the dogs sent to Japan weren't sold to loving owners?

I suspect much of the outrage was the fact that people were rocking up telling the breeders they were taking Regent's Fluffybottom to Surrey, and then chucking it on a boat to Shanghai and selling the animal on at profit. So firstly the breeders were losing out on money, and secondly they had no control over who had the dog and what purpose it was used for, rather than concern for it's welfare exactly. Some dogs are sold without the right to breed them, I think, so if someone's breeding them in China for megabucks off of your hard work, then yeah, that's gonna get up people's noses.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I suspect much of the outrage was the fact that people were rocking up telling the breeders they were taking Regent's Fluffybottom to Surrey, and then chucking it on a boat to Shanghai and selling the animal on at profit. So firstly the breeders were losing out on money, and secondly they had no control over who had the dog and what purpose it was used for, rather than concern for it's welfare exactly. Some dogs are sold without the right to breed them, I think, so if someone's breeding them in China for megabucks off of your hard work, then yeah, that's gonna get up people's noses.

That makes complete sense. It was presented as if the fact that they were going to Japan or China was the issue, not the fact that they were being sent abroad altogether. It sounded as if it had been any other country, it wouldn't have been an issue.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

That makes complete sense. It was presented as if the fact that they were going to Japan or China was the issue, not the fact that they were being sent abroad altogether. It sounded as if it had been any other country, it wouldn't have been an issue.

There was probably some misunderstanding as well; a lot of people think Asia = animal abuse galore, even with household pets, or assume that like Korea, in Japan dog is eaten.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I suspect much of the outrage was the fact that people were rocking up telling the breeders they were taking Regent's Fluffybottom to Surrey, and then chucking it on a boat to Shanghai and selling the animal on at profit. So firstly the breeders were losing out on money, and secondly they had no control over who had the dog and what purpose it was used for, rather than concern for it's welfare exactly. Some dogs are sold without the right to breed them, I think, so if someone's breeding them in China for megabucks off of your hard work, then yeah, that's gonna get up people's noses.

Japan did have a very bad reputation I assure you.

I have bred dogs for many years and would be terribly upset if any of my puppies had ended up being sent away to unknown future. Its not the money it is the welfare that matters to good breeders who love their animals.

I usually had a waiting list for my own puppies-- and have made many friends through my customers. I only had about two litters a year and could be selective to where they went. Usually when a dog reached old age my customers wanted a replacement from me as they knew the animals would be of good temperament etc.

Ireland at one time was acting as an agent for the chikuken company and there was an uproar about it all. caring breeders are really concerned where there puppies go. sadly there are unscrupulous breeders and puppy farmers who don't care at al what happens to the pups they produce. Often the mother lives in poor conditions and is used to churn out litter after litter. I wish the general public could be educated about where they get their pups from.

just now there are hundreds of stafforshire bull terriers being produced-- they are seen as a MACHO breed-- but too many are ending up in rescue centres. They need neutering so they cannot breed as should cats who can produce three litters a year.Also Pit bulls who are not legal in this country but there seem to be plenty of them as they are used as fighting dogs-- which is also illegal here in UK but it goes on in secret.

I am glad I am no longer breeding because as couples need to work full time that means dogs are often left alone all day. Not good.

My breeds were miniature schnauzers and cairn terriers. around here many dog owners have rescue dogs-many from Ireland and Liverpool.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Have you actually seen any of the clothes people put on their dogs?
Costumes restrict the natural movement of humans too... If they were not properly designed to fit. That is why there are clothes specifically for animals, and people aren't dressing them up in doll clothes. That would be incredibly uncomfortable and stressful for a dog. A glorified collar with little loops that the legs can go through is NOT. The designer dog clothing is designed not to cause any stress to an animal. How is a protective coat any different if it has decoration of some sort on it? The actual bits worn by the dog are the same. Do you mean to say that a dog can tell the difference between a protective coat and a decorative coat?

Also, I have yet to encounter anyone who dresses their dog up more than on rare occasions. Most "clothing" is indeed protective - rain coats, warmth coats, etc... Just made to look cute or like some other type of clothing.
I have never seen anyone just dress their dog up and parade them around. You are swallowing sensationalist news reports of weird Japan a bit too completely. I would be more than comfortable to say that the great majority of dog owners do not have ANY sort of clothing for their dogs, let alone decorative only. It may make great news to focus on a handful of weird people who dress their dogs up and show them off all the time, but that isn't the reality for 99% of pet owners.



Japan does not have the best reputation for the treatment of stray dogs and of breeder dogs. Pet dogs with private owners are some of the most pampered creatures I have seen.
Breeders, unfortunately, have an awful reputation in pretty much every country out there. If you want horror stories, just do a search on breeder abuse and the name of the country. I have seen stories of dogs being beaten to death, puppies being burnt alive, old birthing dogs being strangled then tossed in the trash, studs being starved to death in sheds... All in the US and UK. Japan doesn't quite take the prize for breeder cruelty.



You have mentioned this before, and while I can see the unhappiness about dogs being sent to China, being as they do import for human consumption and experimental purposes, what is to say that the dogs sent to Japan weren't sold to loving owners? I can hardly see the point of spending the incredible amounts of money it takes to send an animal to Japan just to do something horrible to it. It is a pretty large endeavor to send an animal to Japan - you can't just bring one in. The dog has to have been brought to the country via certain means, and then spend a certain amount of time in quarantine, followed by medical checks, registration, etc. All things that cost money and would make it pointless to bring dogs from overseas if they weren't going to be sold to private owners who would be willing to pay for all of it.
And at the very least, people care enough about the huge sums of money they spent on the pet to not do things that would cause it to die earlier.



Being as Japan does not eat dogs, nor does it sell them in crates on street corners... I have a feeling that there has been nothing comparable to China or the Philippines for a very long time. In cities there just isn't the room for people to hoard and abuse dogs, and they are still a sort of luxury. Of course there are going to be cruel people out there who do horrible things (our own cats were put into a plastic bag in the middle of summer just after birth and tossed into a parked truck's bed) but to let those people color the image of everyone in an entire country is silly. Should I be worried about the treatment of animals in the UK because I can find news stories about abuse?

Also - China is not Japan. They may be close in location, but they are VERY different countries. Please do not let horrors you have seen taking place in China bleed over on to Japan.

what spaces are there to exercise dogs? can they use public parks? I had heard of japanese owners getting rid of their dogs by shoving them down a rubbish shute.


I did see a programme about owners with their pampered dogs being forced to wear designer clothes and those dogs were obvioiusly uncomfortable. surely dogs have their own fur? If they were meant to wear silly clothes they would not have their own coat. Maybe breeds like mexican hairless and chinese crested need some warmth-- but sorry I think its just not on to treat dogs like a fashion accessory.

You will not find dog behaviourists approving of it at all. wet weather gear etc OKAy-- but clothes to match the outfit of the owner is ridiculous.
I have seen pictures of AKITAS wearing garments-- well considering the thick coat of the akitas its ridiculous and humilating.

these owners are not dog lovers-- they just like to show off their pet in matching accessories.

Yes there is abuse in this country and that makes me angry too. Breeders need to be extra careful where there pets go.

The RSPCA inspects the homes of people who want their rescue dogs.

It's people who are the problem as always. give me animals any day.

Years ago there was bear baiting with dogs-- these poor bears who were taken and used as a dancing bear-- then dogs would be encouraged to bite them. also badger baiting whicn secretly still goes on

Like the cock fighting and dog fighting. We are supposed to have rid this country but there are always these cruel people who use animals for their own sport. URGH.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

what spaces are there to exercise dogs? can they use public parks?

People here are very vigilant about walking their dogs. You will see people out at all hours of the day and night taking their dogs on long walks. You can use public parks, though the dogs need to be leashed. However, there are dog friendly parks and dog runs where they do not need to be on a leash and can run about.

I had heard of japanese owners getting rid of their dogs by shoving them down a rubbish shute.

While I am sure that maybe there has been someone who has gotten rid of their dog by trash chute, I assure you it is not normal, common, or even vaguely acceptable behavior. There are cruel and terrible people everywhere - as I said, should I be judging everyone in the UK as pet abusers if I can find a story of someone tossing a dog into the trash? Wasn't there a story a bit back about a woman caught on camera chucking cats into trash bins and closing them in there to die in the UK?

Also, I have never seen a rubbish chute in Japan. They are so incredibly rare to begin with that even if everyone who had one were tossing their dogs down it, it would still be less than a fraction of a percent of dog owners.

I did see a programme about owners with their pampered dogs being forced to wear designer clothes and those dogs were obvioiusly uncomfortable. surely dogs have their own fur?

And as I said before, television loves to hunt down the strangest most extreme examples of anything and treat it as if it is the norm. Should everyone in Japan be judged on the behavior of some strange individuals who dress their dogs up in designer clothing? The great majority does not do this. I am sure that I could find people in the US and UK who do similar things... But because they are not exotic and "strange" like Japan, making a program about them would be no fun as it would be completely clear to anyone watching that not everyone does that. However, when it is somewhere far away like Japan... Well, television knows it can say pretty much anything it likes to get ratings.
Trust me, people display just as much shock and horror at people who treat their dogs like little fashion accessories.

I have seen pictures of AKITAS wearing garments-- well considering the thick coat of the akitas its ridiculous and humilating.

You may not realize it, but most of the photos you see of pets in clothing are one off events. Someone dresses their dog up for a photo (usually for new years cards or the like), takes the picture, and then is done with it. I have never, even once, seen a dog actually being taken out and walked around in anything more fashionable than a raincoat or little booties in the winter.
Does 5 minutes in a little outfit once or twice a year really torture an animal that much? You write as if people put these clothes on them and keep them dressed all the time.

these owners are not dog lovers-- they just like to show off their pet in matching accessories.

So... Thinking of your pet as close to a child, and wanting to dress them up in a cute outfit for a matching photo is a sign that they do not care about their dog?
I think that the weird culture that has been popularized by socialites in the US of carrying a little dog around like a fancy accessory is silly... But I really do not see why all the dog owners of Japan should be judged based on the behavior of a select few.

Yes there is abuse in this country and that makes me angry too. Breeders need to be extra careful where there pets go.

The RSPCA inspects the homes of people who want their rescue dogs.

It's people who are the problem as always. give me animals any day.

Years ago there was bear baiting with dogs-- these poor bears who were taken and used as a dancing bear-- then dogs would be encouraged to bite them. also badger baiting whicn secretly still goes on

Like the cock fighting and dog fighting. We are supposed to have rid this country but there are always these cruel people who use animals for their own sport. URGH.

This is exactly the point I am tying to make. You are judging Japan based on the behavior of a select few... But at the same time, assigning that same group of select few in your own country to the category they should be assigned to; that of horrible and cruel people who are not the norm.

The worst mainstream problem in Japan are people who get a dog, love the dog, and want the dog to have the "experience" of having puppies... So breed their dog, but then find that they simply cannot deal with a full litter of puppies, especially with mixed sexes and the costs of shots, registration, and preventing more puppies. Add to this that people often think that it would be best for the dog to select their own mates, so do not stick with the same breed... This leads to an unfortunate number of puppies who they are unable to find homes for (most people are wary of private breeders)... This sadly leads to puppies being sent to shelters, where the majority inevitably end up being disposed of.
I have, sadly, heard of more than a couple cases of people who bred their dog, got her fixed immediately, wanted to keep all the puppies... But took too long to get the puppies fixed and ended up with a litter between siblings. And no one wants any puppies that are at a high risk of health problems due to inbreeding.

The fact is, most people simply cannot have pets due to their housing arrangements. The people who do have pets usually care very very much about them. Getting a dog here is not something you can do on a whim... There is just too much of a financial burden.

I do not trust dedicated breeders (dedicated as that is their main source of income, not their feelings toward the work) here or in any other country. But I do trust private owners, as I have seen nothing but loved and pampered dogs in my years of living here.

[dogsbody70]

you do not trust dedicated breeders. Why?

I loved my dogs very much indeed. I tried to improve them. If you mean breeders who simply do it for money then they are just moneymakers and not dog lovers.

I have worked with animals all my adult life-- I fell in love with my two breeds so once I was able to do so I wanted to have a few and breed them and show them.

It was a hobby and certainly not money making-- quite the reverse I assure you.

If there were not didicated breeders who loved their particular breeds and tried to improve them and make many people happy. where would the breeds disappear to?

Puppy farmers are the type who breed for money. Not many small breeders such as myself make anything at all--there are many heartbreaks in breeding.

I never had a family so for me my dogs made up for that lack and I do not regret a minute of my life with animals. I learned that too many human beings could not be trusted--.

If customers want a quality dog of a particular breed they need to go to small breeders who dedicate their lives to their particular breed.

There would not be specific breeds available if not for these type of breeders.

That is why I had waiting lists for my pups-- because I had a good reputation and customers were willing to wait for a pup from me.


I now have a little affenpinscher-- and they are rare so I was prepared to wait for this little dog who has enhanced our lives.If not for specialist breeders I would never have been able to get our our little dog. If the public are more careful where they purchase animals from, maybe there would not be so much neglect or animals have all sorts of things wrong with them.

My little dog would not suit a cafe-- because he is very loyal to us- yes he is friendly to others and people but he loves us and would not follow other people/ Our cairn terriers loved everybody especially children--.


anyway-- I have had my say-- I wish that only animals were bred who would end up in good loving homes.

I did not say that the Japanese were still cruel to their pets- but that they had a reputation for that several years ago.

The japanese akita is extremely popular here-- but the owners need to understand the nature of such a breed before taking them on. Half the problem is when people take on a breed that is unsuited to their owners lifestyle. People need to think more carefully before committing themselves to taking on any animal.

this is an interesting titbit about the famous deafblind lady-- Helen Keller and an Akita breeder.


Hellen Keller and Akitas there is also mention about the japanese chikuken company.


Palette Town, Odaiba, Tokyo, Japan Travel Guide - Happy Jappy

I meant to add that here in UK dogs are not allowed in restaurants unless they are guide dogs


just been looking at a pet store and I hated it. Apart from unnatural conditions for those animals-- it leads to impulse buying which is not good at all.

Animals for sale - YouTube

Pet Stores in Japan - YouTube

[tazzy]

On getting rid of dogs this is to be found in the litter regulations for my city.
Quite darkly amusing and wtf worthy. Sounds quite callous.
But...well from what I've seen folk here do look after their dogs. These puppy cafes though...I do worry.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

you do not trust dedicated breeders. Why?

Please read all of what I wrote. I said breeders who made a living off of breeding. There are too many puppy mills out there, and I tend to be concerned that any major breeder that does nothing but breeding may be just a facade for something less pleasant. Anyone can make a stylish page or have a stylish storefront - but be hiding a bunch of sickly dogs in tiny cages.
Small breeders, with only a litter or two every few months, are much more trustworthy and likely to have healthy and well cared for pets to offer - as I am sure you know.

anyway-- I have had my say-- I wish that only animals were bred who would end up in good loving homes.

I definitely agree with you on this. I think our opinions on what is a happy life and loving home just differ a bit.

I meant to add that here in UK dogs are not allowed in restaurants unless they are guide dogs

They aren`t allowed in here either unless the business is dedicated to having them in (like cafes catering to people walking their dogs with small dog play areas and dog treats on sale) or where the animals are a significant part of the business.

just been looking at a pet store and I hated it. Apart from unnatural conditions for those animals-- it leads to impulse buying which is not good at all.

The first link is NOT in Japan. East Asia, but not Japan. I do not know what they are speaking, but it is not Japanese from what I can hear... Not to mention that I do not believe it is even legal in Japan to sell some of those animals, and to sell them on the street like that. I have never seen puppies (or any other animals, to be honest) on display like that and I have been all over the country. No one would buy from someone so sketchy and suspicious looking.

The second shows a bunch of scattered shots of different pets on display - without any explanation other than those filming wondering whether the pets were on sale for pets or food... Which says a lot for their bias, in my opinion. In pet shops here there is usually a front display area with a small pen where a dog or other pet is put on display for an hour or so then cycled out. In most pet shops, the dogs are behind windows - often with a large open air play area that they take turns in.

Pet shops are, well, shops. I doubt any can really offer a natural sort of environment for larger pets.

Impulse buying is VERY hard in Japan as you usually need to take out financing for any larger pet. I don`t think most people just carry about 250,000 yen (US$3250, GBP2010) in their pocket to spend on a whim. Although I have been tempted on occasion when a puppy in a play pen nearly jumped out with joy at seeing my son and kept watching him and whining for us... She was getting a bit big so was on sale for 120,000 too.....

ETA;
To give an idea of how the most common pet shop chain is set up - Here is a picture of the way the storefront area where the pets are on display is designed:

There are individual areas for the puppies to rest, and a large play space where they take turns running around and playing with the other puppies.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by tazzy

On getting rid of dogs this is to be found in the litter regulations for my city.
Quite darkly amusing and wtf worthy. Sounds quite callous.
But...well from what I've seen folk here do look after their dogs. These puppy cafes though...I do worry.

Most people have full out funerals for their pets if possible. We have a life insurance policy on our cats (well, more like a funeral fund - we pay into it and get back what we paid plus some amount of interest when they pass away) to help pay for their funerals. There are all sorts of plans available from full out funeral including proper grave linked to a prominent temple, to a bouquet of flowers and a quick cremation.
The second most common option is a cremation truck - they will come to site, do a small private funeral, then cremate and give you the ashes (and also offer you small grave stones for placement at home.)

It is only the last resort to take the pet to the place listed there. Usually it is for almost stray cats that passed away on someone`s property... Or when there really isn`t enough money to do the most basic cremation.

Here is a pet funeral home and crematory close to where I live.