Should the U.S. forces leave Japan?

[Tyrien]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

LOL. That is no reason to nuke civis. They could have at least tried conventional bombing methods...

In any light, it does prove the original point, the USA is far from above the mass murder of civilians. Never forget that.

So your original point is that the US has committed ethically worse war crimes than the Japanese has?

No one here is calling either country pure in their acts against other countries. However the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't ruthless in any way. It was a strategic move that had to be done to end a war that had been going on for nearly 7 years.

That's 7 years of killing, 7 years of lives lost, 7 years of homes never to be seen again, 7 years of tears that the world should never have seen. Yea the bombings were a huge sacrifice and a lot of innocent lives were lost. You can't deny it was a crucial point of stopping 7 years of constant bloodshed.

Everyone who's damning the US and glorifying Japan in this topic (mind you we seem to have gone a little bit away from if US forces should be in Japan or not) really needs to read up a little. It's getting fucking ridiculous.

Now people here are trying to claim the dropping of the bombs in 1944 as some horrible inexcusable act committed by the US government and claim that the US has done soooo many more horrible things over the course of history compared to other countries. Calling the US army ruthless, and full of rapist yanks. Utterly fucking ridiculous.

You're either purposely ignoring other countries wrong doings or you guys are legitimately ignorant. Did you know that the war the US played a key part in ending was basically started due to Japanese conflict? More importantly that conflict makes Nagasaki and Hiroshima look like mercy killing in comparison.

A few months following the Second Sino-Japanese War (Wasn't just Germany) here's what the pure innocent Japanese army was up to. Not pretty, huh? Don't read it if you're one of those sensitive types.

[Joly]

Originally Posted by Gorotsuki

The places that they attacked was wrong all they wanted to do was see how good of a weapon it was and how much damage it would cause in a populated area. On the documentries about this that were on HBO one of the bombs was either droped on or very close to a christian community. Oh yes thoes are our enimies thoes silly christian japanese don't they know thats only for us westerners.

Actually, the Nagasaki bomb was a mistake--due to cloud cover, the pilot of the plane couldn't find his original target. It's not like they sat down and plotted to kill the Christians...that doesn't make sense. Also, at first one of the targets was Kyoto, but enough American higher-ups protested and so it was spared. So you see, American leaders were in agony over this, and there were plenty of them involved who had great respect for Japan.

It was well known to the Japanese government by the spring of 1944 that they had irretrievably lost the war. But did they endeavor to save what was left and pick up the pieces by surrendering? No. They drove their people to a frenzy with propaganda campaigns to convince them they were winning. Japanese civilians (yes, the women, children and old people) were trained and ready to fight to the last in the event of an Allied invasion. If the U.S. had not dropped the bomb and ended things where it did, it is my belief that the U.S. would be charged with the genocide of the Japanese people, as the years of war would drag on and the dead pile up until America's superior firepower and economy would have at last annihilated Japan. Japan is a very proud country and not used to surrendering. It's sad that it took an atom bomb to convince the government that surrender was the way to save their country.

This is still a very sensitive issue to many with a lot of hurt still behind it...it's something that should never have happened...but I think it saved lives, and I don't think Japan would be the successful country it is today if the bombing and subsequent surrender had not occurred.

[Tyrien]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

You guys are pretty terrible...

Thinking up ways to justify mass murder of civilians... Every country will turn into a militia if they are given weapons and invaded, provided they like their country, of course.

I am not argueing the right and wrong of being able to end a war, I am saying what was done was fuckin pitiful. Why don't you address that? Yes, I will say the same thing to Japanese soldiers and officers from that war, but that does not change what the US done, as so many people think if something is bad enough, it is okay to do an equal bad if it ends all bads... 2 wrongs don't make a right. The peace that has settled in the wake of this new world has proven that saying more so than ever, where nothing has changed, and they're still all dead...

The fact US will compromise itself so much that anything will become a legitamite target for its military speaks only of the lack of will and heart the country has in its culture.

Wow.

In war 2 wrongs do make a right. History proves this. Espcially in World War II. Drastic measures had to be taken.

[girlgamer1984]

So your original point is that the US has committed ethically worse war crimes than the Japanese has?

No one here is calling either country pure in their acts against other countries. However the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't ruthless in any way. It was a strategic move that had to be done to end a war that had been going on for nearly 7 years.

That's 7 years of killing, 7 years of lives lost, 7 years of homes never to be seen again, 7 years of tears that the world should never have seen. Yea the bombings were a huge sacrifice and a lot of innocent lives were lost. You can't deny it was a crucial point of stopping 7 years of constant bloodshed.

Everyone who's damning the US and glorifying Japan in this topic (mind you we seem to have gone a little bit away from if US forces should be in Japan or not) really needs to read up a little. It's getting fucking ridiculous.

Now people here are trying to claim the dropping of the bombs in 1944 as some horrible inexcusable act committed by the US government and claim that the US has done soooo many more horrible things over the course of history compared to other countries. Calling the US army ruthless, and full of rapist yanks. Utterly fucking ridiculous.

You're either purposely ignoring other countries wrong doings or you guys are legitimately ignorant. Did you know that the war the US played a key part in ending was basically started due to Japanese conflict? More importantly that conflict makes Nagasaki and Hiroshima look like mercy killing in comparison.

A few months following the Second Sino-Japanese War (Wasn't just Germany) here's what the pure innocent Japanese army was up to. Not pretty, huh? Don't read it if you're one of those sensitive types.

So you are justifying their actions. I hope you are not from US because this is the most cliched response from their public if such a topic ever turns up. This is no different from the way they acted or are acting in Afghanistan and Iraq. They bomed the hell out of these countries, killing thousands upon thousands of civilians for their own agendas. If you think that this is justified then I am sorry I think you justify blood-shed at that level. I have nothing more to say.

[Tyrien]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

So killing all those children which the bomb did was 'right'?

... You sense of logic has made you completely delusional... Now you are more irrational than ever. You will slaughter children with fire... tell me why again? Oh, and remind me, like you all do, that I am the greater of us 2 evils, I like that one...

I meant 2 wrongs don't make a right, and nothing changes, is that your country is still fighting wars, and they always will be until one day the country falls. ALL nations fall, given enough time, by the way. Anyway, the point is, criminals die, and they are born again, the nature of man cannot be changed, no matter how many children you sacrafice to validate your concept of freedom and tyrany...

Where have you decided to not read me saying it was horrible? Fuck you just don't get it at all. Never have I said it was right. I'm saying it had to be done, and I'm saying that it ended one of the most horrible wars this world has ever seen.

In war two wrongs do make a right. All nations fall right? So in a war we're (we as in humans) just supposed to wait year after year in attrition until everyone's hands are covered in blood? Japan's stance in the war had to fall.

You're not even trying to listen though. You see that I'm justifying a horrible action (in a horrible war) and just ride with that I'm all for tyrannical actions and slaying the innocent when I'm so far against needless killing and for freedom that couldn't possibly be true.

The whole problem you have is that you want it to be an ideal world. Hell I want to it be an ideal world but it's not. There's going to be fighting, and there's going to be dying. That will never change.

However dropping that bomb did make change. That war had to end. There's no other way of looking at it. It.had.to.end.

Fine though. If you can't look past stereotypical hate for a country fueled by the media and look at something for what it really is.

Originally Posted by girlgamer1984

So you are justifying their actions. I hope you are not from US because this is the most cliched response from their public if such a topic ever turns up. This is no different from the way they acted or are acting in Afghanistan and Iraq. They bomed the hell out of these countries, killing thousands upon thousands of civilians for their own agendas. If you think that this is justified then I am sorry I think you justify blood-shed at that level. I have nothing more to say.

No one is justifying boodshed. Stop reading only what you want to.

What I was saying is the US isn't the only country that had done bad things over the course of history and that when someone brought up the bombing that ended Japan's involvement in World War 2, yet saying the US is a big bad meanie pants because of it.

It was sad, yea. Horrible. War should never happen but that's living in an idealistic world. It ended a war that had been going on for over 7 years. It wasn't just pointing it at a major city and dropping a bomb then going "YEYYYYHAAWWWWW!!!!" and hoping to hit as many innocent as possible. It was meant to wipe out key Japanese military institutions, in fact vaporize them.

Any other more peaceful action would have been ineffective. The Japanese would have hid it from the public and moral wouldn't have died at all. Maybe you should blame the Japanese though for placing key military establishments in major cities since everyone here just loves to toss blame around.

I still like how no one has commented on what Japan did right around the start of World War II that makes Nagasaki and Hiroshima look pathetic in comparison. It makes me wonder if my posts aren't actually being read and those who comment just read what they want to read, or people are actually ignoring it. Maybe no one cares because it was the Chinese? Yea that'd probably make sense too.

[girlgamer1984]

And yet it does not change the fact that US is repeating the same things all over again. May I remaind you that Us has a history of killing innocents on a massive scale, disregarding the basic concept called humanity. I am sure the torture pictures which surfaced and then disappeared just as quickly are proof enough how well they are handeling the civilians in Iraq and Afg. This is no different the way they acted in WWII. So ending the war for a so-called greater cause= nuking, using chemical weapons for the mass-murder of the civilians. I don't understand your logic.

[Joly]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

You guys are pretty terrible...
Thinking up ways to justify mass murder of civilians... Every country will turn into a militia if they are given weapons and invaded, provided they like their country, of course.

There is no justification, because such things are never "fair". I don't think we are trying to justify the U.S.'s actions, but provide the reasons for why they were unfortunately necessary. You can't beat your swords into plowshares if everyone else is still swinging swords at you. What would you rather the U.S. have done? Invaded Japan and slowly wiped out its people as they all fought to the bitter end? Would you like that better?

Sure, the bomb was made and dropped by the U.S., but the cause behind it was the Japanese government. They knew they were losing a year before. If the government had been willing to surrender at that point, the bomb would not have been used. The U.S. dropped the bomb because the Japanese government was unwilling to stop and surrender--not because they hated Japanese civilians, or wanted to try out this cool new bomb, or any other stupid reason.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Joly

There is no justification, because such things are never "fair". I don't think we are trying to justify the U.S.'s actions, but provide the reasons for why they were unfortunately necessary. You can't beat your swords into plowshares if everyone else is still swinging swords at you. What would you rather the U.S. have done? Invaded Japan and slowly wiped out its people as they all fought to the bitter end? Would you like that better?

Sure, the bomb was made and dropped by the U.S., but the cause behind it was the Japanese government. They knew they were losing a year before. If the government had been willing to surrender at that point, the bomb would not have been used. The U.S. dropped the bomb because the Japanese government was unwilling to stop and surrender--not because they hated Japanese civilians, or wanted to try out this cool new bomb, or any other stupid reason.

A mainland invasion wasn't necessary. Japan was finished. The Allies however a)- Wanted an UNCONDITIONAL surrender
b)- Had a new weapon which they eagerly wanted to test out on some "yellows"
c)- What better warning shot to fire at the Soviets than a live demonstration of the A-bomb.

Defeat of Japan would have come via suffocating the islands eventually... Japan had next to nothing to throw back at the Allies at that stage.

[Tyrien]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

A mainland invasion wasn't necessary. Japan was finished. The Allies however a)- Wanted an UNCONDITIONAL surrender
b)- Had a new weapon which they eagerly wanted to test out on some "yellows"
c)- What better warning shot to fire at the Soviets than a live demonstration of the A-bomb.

Defeat of Japan would have come via suffocating the islands eventually... Japan had next to nothing to throw back at the Allies at that stage.

You must be a little confused. Not to mention you have so much unconditional stereotypical hate for something you really know nothing about to even attempt to argue this fairly.

A mainland invasion was necessary. You can't just bomb a country in a war like that then not do nothing. You have to bring troops in to tie up all the lose ends.

Your comment about early wanting to test out a new weapon is not only racist but discriminatory against an entire country.

I think you've proved you have given up any rights you have about input in this conversation.

[molinameister]

they should withdrawl the forces in japan, but, they should make like, a nearby base or something (not in japan)