Japanese anime industry being killed by free downloads

[Haggis]

I thought you'd seen the anime Monster. But I guess I must be wrong. I admire the stance you take, the best of the recent anime releases look like they're not going to be licenced, so it must be hard to miss out on them.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Haggis

I thought you'd seen the anime Monster. But I guess I must be wrong. I admire the stance you take, the best of the recent anime releases look like they're not going to be licenced, so it must be hard to miss out on them.

No, I have never seen the anime Monster, just the manga.

There is no way to know what is going to be licensed and what isn't, but the best thing for fans to do is tell publishers what they are interesting in.

You know if anime is really something that you love (and I am talking to everyone here) you need to support the industries. These means being vocal about titles you like and spending part of your entertainment income on anime, that could be a few bucks a month at Crunchyroll, buying a DVD, renting off Netflix, going to conventions and buying merchandise, whatever...

[SaintKat]

Originally Posted by MMM

When did this sense of privilege to test-drive something before we buy come from?

Don't worry MMM your views are perfectly and valid and reasonable to me and I honestly don't take offence.

I do it with music and movies too. I don't do it with clothes, accessories, books etc as I'm able to lay my hands on the completed article and better able to make an informed choice on whether I want it or not. As long as the labelling is honest I know I'm getting what I paid for.

Personally, I'm really interested to see how business deals with the whole P2P issue and who's going to come out on top. The current models ARE NOT WORKING so a new approach will be great.



Edit: Slightly off-topic, who else noted the Pirate Party getting a seat in Parliament? I know I'm watching developments with great interest.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by MMM

I hope I am not blowing your mind when I say that the download of fansubs of unlicensed materials is illegal as well. This is covered in the Berne Convention, and almost every country in the world, including of West agreed. Basically it means that international copyrights are respected the same way as domestic copyrights. So no, they don't "get to" preview it. It is still illegal and is still stealing from someone who created something without paying for it. The only difference is the victim is in another country, so you are less likely to get caught.

In this case, I don't really see it as that much of a problem, especially if the episode aired say, Saturday night, and it's up to watch Sunday night with subs. Is it no different than watching it live due to how close it is? Isn't it pretty much the same as taping it and watching it later? Can't the subs act as basic closed-captioning?

I've been watching Dragon Ball Kai lately. Not downloads, though, just a live-stream when it's already airing, so for me, that's about 8:00 pm EST, Saturday night. What if I waited a day to watch it with subs because I didn't feel like keeping up with a raw for a certain episode. Would you still consider this a bad thing?

[SSJup81]

Just checked out Crunchy Roll and it is a good alternative. For the most part, though, I'm not all that into anime and my series watching is far and in between, so most of what's there doesn't interest me, 'cept for Gundam 00, and that's only because it was recommended to me. I wish there were older titles to choose from with official subs...even something simple like Pokemon would be nice or Monster Rancher or Yoroiden Samurai Troopers (I know it has one, but Bandai was stupid with the series' limited release; this is a series I literally want to own, and that's rare with me when it comes to shows).

To be honest, I wish more manga would get licenses so that I won't have to look at scanlations...then again, there's some manga that doesn't have that due to how rare it is. I just hope Kuroshitsuji gets a license for its manga. I definitely would buy that.

All that aside, about "sampling"...I don't have a problem with checking something out prior to buying, especially if you have to import it. I'm more into music than I am into anime so most of my money would go towards that. I like to hear something before I get it if it has to be imported. I'm more lenient towards stuff I can get at the Best Buy stores like 10 and 20 minutes away from me. Of course there are some artists/groups I buy for regardless (Akino Arai; Rie fu; THYME; etc), but others, if I like the cd, it goes onto my "I will someday be able to get this" list. lol Import fees are expensive.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by SSJup81

In this case, I don't really see it as that much of a problem, especially if the episode aired say, Saturday night, and it's up to watch Sunday night with subs. Is it no different than watching it live due to how close it is? Isn't it pretty much the same as taping it and watching it later? Can't the subs act as basic closed-captioning?

I've been watching Dragon Ball Kai lately. Not downloads, though, just a live-stream when it's already airing, so for me, that's about 8:00 pm EST, Saturday night. What if I waited a day to watch it with subs because I didn't feel like keeping up with a raw for a certain episode. Would you still consider this a bad thing?

A pay j-tv streaming site was just shut down a week or two ago. Why? The money users were paying was going to the hosts of the website, but not the actual TV stations it rebroadcast.

Fansubbers supposedly live by an edict of "we don't get paid for what we do, therefore it is OK" but the truth of the matter is it is not legal. That was my point. If you think watching unlicensed titles DLed or streamed or whatever is OK because it isn't illegal, then you are mistaken.

The moral dilemma is your own, but I don't believe in taking for free what other people pay for legally. Or more importantly, I don't believe in being part of the problem of the demise of the anime industry, and as a fan I would rather be a supporter.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by MMM

A pay j-tv streaming site was just shut down a week or two ago. Why? The money users were paying was going to the hosts of the website, but not the actual TV stations it rebroadcast.

Well, I use Keyhole TV. Not sure what the deal with that is. I kinda like it since I can look up drama programs...if I remember. lol

Fansubbers supposedly live by an edict of "we don't get paid for what we do, therefore it is OK" but the truth of the matter is it is not legal. That was my point. If you think watching unlicensed titles DLed or streamed or whatever is OK because it isn't illegal, then you are mistaken.

Nah. To me, I still see it as sampling before buying. I don't even get Cartoon Network on television, so I don't watch it on reg TV or anything like that. After I watch a show, I approach it like this: could I rewatch this series after it's over or would I only go back for maybe an episode or two? If it's the latter, then that series will remain off of my "to buy" list. I would hate to shell out cash for something like that, and it turns out I didn't like it enough to even want to own or either it has no rewatch value to me. I'm like this towards pretty much everything, not just junk on TV. Same goes for movies. If I see a movie in the theatre, after I'm done watching it, I ask myself the same question. Most movies, to me, don't have rewatch value...'cept for maybe older ones. So, when it gets a home release, I don't get it.

Anywho, anime seems to fit into this category. Most that I've come across don't seem to have any rewatch value. It saved me some money...which I'd use towards manga and music, and with music, I definitely samlpe before I buy because of how expensive it is, unless it's an obscure artist and I just buy it anyway, regardless of whether or not I'll like what I purchase.

The moral dilemma is your own, but I don't believe in taking for free what other people pay for legally. Or more importantly, I don't believe in being part of the problem of the demise of the anime industry, and as a fan I would rather be a supporter.

Maybe this is my problem. Unlike most, I don't think I'm a true "anime" fan, which is probably why I don't feel entirely bad if I randomly watch a series that I download each week or whatever since it's not a daily thing. I rarely watch anything anyway, not like say...10+ years ago. I'm a big manga fan, though, and read a lot of it compared to the anime stuff and wish that would have more means to getting legally, but if it isn't licensed, there isn't much that can be done, although, I am glad that some of the stuff I mentioned in your other thread has one now and I'm definitely going to put that on the "high priority" list. I'd get that before any anime series. Manga, for the most part to me, has re-reading value.

To me, it just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore. I still feel that places like Crunchy Roll needs more variety. Most everything there is either too new or too mainstream.

That aside, what I said earlier still can apply. If one truly enjoys a series, then he/she will more than likely support it to some extent, even if it's later than expected. Last anime series I watched, and actually enjoyed, was Deathnote. I saw that subbed before it got a license in the states (now you see how long ago that was lol). After watching it, I said I'd buy the boxset of it whenever one was released for it. It's still on my list...just on the back burner for now....more interested in a lot of music-oriented things I've been putting off for years (I'm finally getting SUITE CHIC's two albums along with Do As Infinity's latest single which gets here tomorrow! ^_^).

[inno89]

Originally Posted by MMM

Unfortunately you are in the minority. But you are still stealing and it is still illegal.

When did this sense of privilege to test-drive something before we buy come from? I'll buy a CD from an artist I like without knowing if it is good or not. I pay for a movie at the movie theater before I watch it, not after...and choose to pay whether I liked it or not. The entertainment industry doesn't work that way. You are seeing the results. "Fans" would rather steal than reward those entertaining them for what they received.

All anime that is for sale has promos, commercials, reviews, etc. available for free and legally. Next time go to the publisher's site and check those out instead of downloading, excuse me, stealing and deciding to pay for it, or not, later.

I have to strongly disagree with you here MMM. He is indeed in the vast majority and that has been reflected by what you have announced in your first post. As Nyororin said, it is only those small die-hard group of otaku's that purchase the overly priced DVD's. The matter-at-hand is that these DVD prices are outrageous and the choice for these companies is by either reduce them severely to a rate that those young kids with not much parental support can buy (including cash-strapped college kids as well) or a new business model (*cough*RIAA*cough*). If they can't achieve any of those things, then go bankrupt; free markets are not 4-year old playpens, you either make a good product with a good model and failure to achieve either results in failure itself, simple as that. If these companies are looking for empathy, they've got another thing coming to them while trying to raise prices in a back-hand fashion. They aren't getting a single cent out of me till they learn how to play ball.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by inno89

I have to strongly disagree with you here MMM. He is indeed in the vast majority and that has been reflected by what you have announced in your first post. As Nyororin said, it is only those small die-hard group of otaku's that purchase the overly priced DVD's. The matter-at-hand is that these DVD prices are outrageous and the choice for these companies is by either reduce them severely to a rate that those young kids with not much parental support can buy (including cash-strapped college kids as well) or a new business model (*cough*RIAA*cough*).

You are mixing up the price points in Japan (where Nyororin lives) and in America. The price for anime DVDs in Japan runs about 4 times those in the US. That being said they are still expensive.

Anime publishers are not idiots and to think that they would price them so high in the US that no one could afford them on purpose is insane. The problem is that bringing anime to English isn't free. Voice actors, translators, sound studios, licensing...all this costs money.

If you think the majority of people that steal anime online actually go out and buy it later, I think you need to check your facts. Just posts on this site show that the majority of people that steal online do not "have the money" to support their "anime addiction."

Originally Posted by inno89

If they can't achieve any of those things, then go bankrupt; free markets are not 4-year old playpens, you either make a good product with a good model and failure to achieve either results in failure itself, simple as that. If these companies are looking for empathy, they've got another thing coming to them while trying to raise prices in a back-hand fashion. They aren't getting a single cent out of me till they learn how to play ball.

Does that mean you are not watching their products? I talked about earlier legitimate ways to watch manga that don't mean you have to buy the DVDS.

You can rent then on Netflix, and then see them on X-Box Live...rent them from the local video store...you don't have to steal to see it.

This attempt to victimize the fanbase is going to fall flat. People that steal their entertainment are not fans and end up hurting those that really are fans.

[Kyousuke]

isnt currency stronger in japan that in america? which might be the reason its more expensive, idk i went to public school. but as to the question about free downloads, i found that business is good when they got rid of bootleggers from my town. people still ask around for burned movies, but movie sales are good, especially anime movies. some people want to own the actual DVD's because they are better.