Dolphin Slaughter in Taiji Begins September

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

^ It carries zero weight because it's not the scientific method. It doesn't matter what a scientist feels or thinks, he was to prove it by duplicate-able measurements. Period.

How do you prove self awareness then?

The tests they carry out are enough for me.

Their opinions are based on the tests.

As I said before... you only think it carries zero weight because to you.. the only way they will be self aware is if they tell you straight to your face in any human language.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by cranks

OK. First, Please present the "LOGICAL REASON" why self-awareness matters to animals, and ONLY in case of babies other factors matter. It seems arbitrary to me and a lot of people.

It matters to SELF AWARE animals the same reason it would matter to you if some Alien species came down to Earth, started rounding up Japanese people and then started stabbing them in a head with a giant spear. Because HUMANS are self aware animals too.

Originally Posted by cranks

And secondly, you just conceded to dolphin hunting. I have noticed that you have never once mentioned a particular species. You have been saying "whales" are self-awere. The truth is Cetacea (Whale and Dolphin) is a large biological group (Order), equivalent of Cetruminantia, which contains species like cow and giraffe.

Even the case of possibly the smartest Cetacea, Bottlenose dolphin, whether or not they are self-aware is a controversy.

Project Delphis: Evidence of Self-Awareness in the Bottlenose Dolphin

Are we reading the same thing? I think the tests show that they are self aware. The conclusion even says that although it doesnt prove that they are self aware, the tests make a compelling argument that they are. That is enough for me... as the only way you can PROVE a dolphin is self aware is if the dolphin starts speaking a human language.

The only people it is a controversy to are the nationalistic Japanese who want to retain their "culture" or people in the industry perhaps.

Originally Posted by cranks

Dall's Porpoise is not a species known for their intelligence, at least not as smart as Bottlenose dolphin, and there is no evidence they are self-aware, not to mention Minke whales. As Taichi stopped hunting Bottlenose dolphins, according to your logic, the case is over. There is no issue with Japanese dolphin hunting.

IF that is the case, then the species Taiji are hunting are fine. I wouldnt eat it but if stupid people want to eat food laced with mercury in Japan then that is up to them.

[Ronin4hire]

Im not going to be around in this discussion much longer as judging by the flak MissMisa is getting, it seems we are going around in circles because the whaling/dolphin hunting apologists are not listening.

I just want to say that here is the summary of this discussion

Anti hunters
"Whaling is bad because of X, Y and Z"

Apologists
"But factory farms are bad! and anti whalers are racist!"

Anti hunters
"What the f*ck? Im not a racist! And this has nothing to do with farms. I am against them too!"

Apologists
"This is about culture! You are a Westerner and Westerners have farms!"

Anti hunters
"Culture is not a reasonable defense and I may be a Westerner but we are not all the same!"

At least that is how the discussion has gone thus far. Of course there has been some attempt to address X Y and Z and that is fine but its becoming messy because of all the other shit that is going on.

I am only going to respond to points addressing X Y and Z from now on. Any mention of farms, culture etc I am going to ignore because it is not relevant.

Finally I just want to say to cranks... You USED to be on the anti-whaling side but changed sides because apparently "anti whalers are racist?"

What a cop out. Have your own moral reasons for being against whaling instead of "following the group". It makes me think that the only reason you are defending whaling is because you feel like you are defending Japan. That is really sad because you are becoming a nationalist because of nationalists in the West.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

It matters to SELF AWARE animals the same reason it would matter to you if some Alien species came down to Earth, started rounding up Japanese people and then started stabbing them in a head with a giant spear. Because HUMANS are self aware animals too.

You've just said in the case of humans, there are more than self-awareness. So Please ask your Alians to return to their mother planet. I hope by alien you didn't mean me, because I'm legally alien here in the states.

I asked for the "logical reason" why self-awareness matters solely to animals, and ONLY in the case of human babies other factors matter. But in the following sentences, it seems we finally have a common ground, so it doesn't matter anymore.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Are we reading the same thing? I think the tests show that they are self aware.

The conclusion even says that although it doesnt prove that they are self aware, the tests make a compelling argument that they are.

That is enough for me... as the only way you can PROVE a dolphin is self aware is if the dolphin starts speaking a human language.

The only people it is a controversy to are the nationalistic Japanese who want to retain their "culture" or people in the industry perhaps.

IF that is the case, then the species Taiji are hunting are fine. I wouldnt eat it but if stupid people want to eat food laced with mercury in Japan then that is up to them.

If you tell dog owners that their dogs aren't self-aware, hence it is OK to eat them, I don't think they will agree with you. Your idea of self-awareness isn't that persuasive even in the English speaking countries. But that's just my opinion. Anyway, as Taichi stopped hunting Bottlenose dolphins, it seems you can finally sleep easy. Just one thing. Please think about it. Did you feel I am a nationalistic Japanese from my posts before you engage in this debate? Why is it we have no Japanese supporting you here? I've seen a Japanese regular, Sashimister, expressing contempt for anti-whaling activists in another thread too. Please think about it. I believe ultimately it's good for you and your cause.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by cranks

You've just said in the case of humans, there are more than self-awareness. So Please ask your alians to return to their mother planet.

I asked for the "logical reason" why self-awareness matters to animals, and ONLY in case of babies other factors matter. But in the following sentences, it seems like we finally have a common ground, so it doesn't matter anymore.

BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!

Tell me cranks.. why are you against eating babies? (Or do you like eating babies?)

Originally Posted by cranks

If you tell any dog owner that their dog isn't self-aware, hence it is OK to eat it, I don't think people will agree with you. Your idea of self-awareness isn't that persuasive even in the English speaking countries. But that's just my opinion. Anyway, as Taichi stopped hunting Bottlenose dolphins, it seems you can finally sleep easy.

Bad analogy.

I trust SCIENTISTS whose specialty is studying whales and dolphins. I dont trust the Japanese whaling industry or their apologists.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by evanny

and i say its a bad thing. we had them also more or less gone and now because 80's are gone with fox fur coats are not needed and since fox is an usless animal we are having problems with other wild life. rabbits, deers and rest of the wild life is now the victim because someone thought it was important to save foxes. now who will save these animals who are actually usefull?

more you iterfier more sh*t comes out of it. youll get back your foxes at the uk, but since they have no use for humans soon theyll spread like wildfire fu*king things up with the animals in the wild that are actually usefull.

so here is the picture what will happen is some 20 years...history is bound to repeat itself. so - dont say its the right dirrection if you are not aware of the outcome.

Lol I'm just gonna dismiss your point now because it's frankly a load of crap.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Im not going to be around in this discussion much
I am only going to respond to points addressing X Y and Z from now on. Any mention of farms, culture etc I am going to ignore because it is not relevant.
you are becoming a nationalist because of nationalists in the West.

As if your the only one with relevant points while other views are irrelevant to this issue.

To be honest MissMisa has much more relevant and stronger arguments than you. I just wanted her to know that in the end, it doesn't matter what foreigners think, we will decide for ourselves.

your self-aware argument is the weakest I ever came across for two reasons:
1) you never gave proof. only the opinions of bios scientists. They are the only ones that say whales have a high level of self-awareness. It's not up to me to devise a proof to test self-awareness.

2) There is no consensus that self-awareness is more important than say awareness of surroundings, ability to feel fear, to feel pain , ability to use tools, level of intelligence, etc... Self-awareness as the litmus test defining what we can eat or not eat is purely your opinion and yours alone.

you can have your opinion just as MissMisa can have hers and I can have mine. But it's no more relevant than anyone else opinion and the final right to choose a direction goes to Japan..

[evanny]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

Lol I'm just gonna dismiss your point now because it's frankly a load of crap.

of course you will. youll have a bite of your echo-friendly apple and keep on ignoring what outcome others have presented in your plan.

you just dont get how the wild life works, dont you? humans can't use predetor spiecies in almost anywere...they are just not so usefull as the rest of the spiecies. and problem with the whole nature starts when people like you decide its a good thing to save those predators who naturally are allways in smaller numbers that the rest of the wildlife.
im saying you that lifes here for the rest of wildlife (not just it. also farmers) are gone down because foxes are so many and none needs them. and govorment is going to take action when its all totally FD UP like allways.

so please. continiue eating your echo-eggs and everything else echo because its also a load of crap and i like the idea you eating it.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by evanny

of course you will. youll have a bite of your echo-friendly apple and keep on ignoring what outcome others have presented in your plan.

you just dont get how the wild life works, dont you? humans can't use predetor spiecies in almost anywere...they are just not so usefull as the rest of the spiecies. and problem with the whole nature starts when people like you decide its a good thing to save those predators who naturally are allways in smaller numbers that the rest of the wildlife.
im saying you that lifes here for the rest of wildlife (not just it. also farmers) are gone down because foxes are so many and none needs them. and govorment is going to take action when its all totally FD UP like allways.

so please. continiue eating your echo-eggs and everything else echo because its also a load of crap and i like the idea you eating it.

So the solution is to savage other animals for fun... yeah. You just said we shouldn't interfere with the population, now you are saying we should kill foxes because they have an effect on the rest of the environment. Which is it?

I didn't say killing foxes was bad, either. I said, FOX HUNTING is bad. By what you are talking about, you know nothing of the actual 'sport' of fox hunting. The majority of people in England didn't agree with it, so it was banned. Democracy! The jury is still out for me on culling animals to save others, I don't know enough about it to comment.

[evanny]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

So the solution is to savage other animals for fun... yeah. You just said we shouldn't interfere with the population, now you are saying we should kill foxes because they have an effect on the rest of the environment. Which is it?

wow..you got me wrong.
having a ban on fox hunting is wrong. we had that ban and you can read what happened - we have more of them than we have ever had only this time we also dont need them. no hunter is going to waste his time on controling spiecies in which he has no gain. so its up to the goverment and things will have to get even worst for them to notice and take action which will cost money.

and really? upper classes in england actually managed to drive foxes to the extincion whith their horse back, whiskey drinking, bloodhound gathering parties??