Dolphin Slaughter in Taiji Begins September

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by evanny

wow..you got me wrong.
having a ban on fox hunting is wrong. we had that ban and you can read what happened - we have more of them than we have ever had only this time we also dont need them. no hunter is going to waste his time on controling spiecies in which he has no gain. so its up to the goverment and things will have to get even worst for them to notice and take action which will cost money.

and really? upper classes in england actually managed to drive foxes to the extincion whith their horse back, whiskey drinking, bloodhound gathering parties??

To be honest I can't be bothered even having a conversation with you, your arguement is kind of ridiculous. 'We should support violence because nobody will kill foxes if we don't.'

Why are you placing the rights of other animals over a fox? Why is it such a 'bad' creature. It's only doing what it's instincts tell it to.

I've had chickens eaten by them and it's awful. But the fox doesn't think 'oh I'll eat those or kill those just to upset the people who they belong to.' It's just an animal dealing with it's instincts, why should it be punished for that? That's how nature is, we shouldn't interfere unless it's something that us as humans have caused.

(This is getting off topic so I'm ending it here.)

[evanny]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

To be honest I can't be bothered even having a conversation with you, your arguement is kind of ridiculous. 'We should support violence because nobody will kill foxes if we don't.'

Why are you placing the rights of other animals over a fox? Why is it such a 'bad' creature. It's only doing what it's instincts tell it to.

I've had chickens eaten by them and it's awful. But the fox doesn't think 'oh I'll eat those or kill those just to upset the people who they belong to.' It's just an animal dealing with it's instincts, why should it be punished for that? That's how nature is, we shouldn't interfere unless it's something that us as humans have caused.

no, no and no.. thats not how the nature is. you are so naive.
and i didnt say a fox is a bad creature. i said fox is a usless creature and thats why its increased numbers will creat larger problems with wildlife. wont be a balance and the natures basic principal is balance!

you are so touchy when it comes to your probles but when japanese are doing stuff wrong you are all up in their business. just like with them only reversed. i present to you facts out of my own experiance and you deny them.
good thing you said its ok for others to point them out.

P.S ou..you ended it here. yea. the problem still remains..that sucks, doesnt it?
lets see how you will feel about foxes in 20 years when a rabbit fox bites someone you know because it spreads fast.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by evanny

no, no and no.. thats not how the nature is. you are so naive.
and i didnt say a fox is a bad creature. i said fox is a usless creature and thats why its increased numbers will creat larger problems with wildlife. wont be a balance and the natures basic principal is balance!

you are so touchy when it comes to your probles but when japanese are doing stuff wrong you are all up in their business. just like with them only reversed. i present to you facts out of my own experiance and you deny them.
good thing you said its ok for others to point them out.

P.S ou..you ended it here. yea. the problem still remains..that sucks, doesnt it?
lets see how you will feel about foxes in 20 years when a rabbit fox bites someone you know because it spreads fast.

I'm not touchy at all, I acknowledged the fact we also have problems ages ago, this just isn't one of them. Fox hunting was in our CULTURE. We decided it was CRUEL so we BANNED it. Why is that bad? There are other ways to deplete the fox population (if that's your aim) without chasing them for hours and then letting them be savaged by dogs.

Who made you god? Who made you decide the definition of a 'useless creature.' Nature has managed for thousands of years without our help, in fact it is probably better without us.

You sound like a Daily Mail article haha. Let's see what happens when we don't kill foxes violently! They'll take over and run our streets, and terrorise us all! *rolls eyes.*

End of this convo! Back to Dolphins in Taiji please.

[evanny]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

definition of a 'useless creature.'

just last point. in nature there arent any usless creatures. but in eyes of people there are - usless for meat, for fur, for oils and etc. and when they do spread..yea there will be problems. its all im saying out of experiance.

ok. lets get back to sawing whles and bees. o, i mean dolphins.

so ronin...next argument, please ?

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

To be honest MissMisa has much more relevant and stronger arguments than you. I just wanted her to know that in the end, it doesn't matter what foreigners think, we will decide for ourselves.

Lol.. we? Who is we? Japan? A lot of Japanese are against whaling also. Do their opinions not matter? Stop trying to make this about Japan.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

your self-aware argument is the weakest I ever came across for two reasons:
1) you never gave proof. only the opinions of bios scientists. They are the only ones that say whales have a high level of self-awareness. It's not up to me to devise a proof to test self-awareness.

Its not my whole argument. My other argument of course is that whaling is environmentally unsustainable.

ONLY the opinions of scientists? They are the ones whose opinion matters the most. After all... they are SCIENTISTS.

Hmmm... who do you listen to for information on thinks like nature? I listen to scientists personally

As I said before. The only reason it cant be said for certain that they are self aware is because dolphins and whales havent spoken to humans and told us that they are.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

2) There is no consensus that self-awareness is more important than say awareness of surroundings, ability to feel fear, to feel pain , ability to use tools, level of intelligence, etc... Self-awareness as the litmus test defining what we can eat or not eat is purely your opinion and yours alone.

I actually gave an article back a couple posts which says it is the opinion held by scientists on the issue too. So guess what... you are wrong again.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

you can have your opinion just as MissMisa can have hers and I can have mine. But it's no more relevant than anyone else opinion and the final right to choose a direction goes to Japan..

Japan can choose whatever she wants. This is about who is right or wrong.

[chiuchimu]

@Ronin4hire.

"..Lol.. we? Who is we? Japan? A lot of Japanese are against whaling also. Do their opinions not matter? Stop trying to make this about Japan. ."

Yes, Japan. whether for or against. it's our decision not yours.


"..Its not my whole argument. My other argument of course is that whaling is environmentally unsustainable..."

I already addressed that.


"..ONLY the opinions of scientists? They are the ones whose opinion matters the most. After all... they are SCIENTISTS..."

The opinions of pro-environmental scientist doesn't count. I can predict exactly on what side of the line their opinions will land not because I am clairvoyant, but because they have an agenda. That is why science requires proof.


"..I actually gave an article back a couple posts which says it is the opinion held by scientists on the issue too. So guess what... you are wrong again..."

I didn't catch the article so I'll abstain from commenting on it until I read it and did some cross referencing.


"..Japan can choose whatever she wants. This is about who is right or wrong..."

Well, I can live with that since you acknowledged Japan will choose it's own path. and the path we choose may not be the right on for you, but it will be the right on for us.

[MissMisa]

chiuchimu, are you for or against whaling and what are your reasons? It's clear you are for Japan making it's own decisions, I'm just interested to what your thoughts are on the matter entirely.

[pumpum]

My girlfriends mother is a whale and japan can come and take her anytime lmao !!

[GoNative]

Any country can choose to make decisions about how it treats it's people or it's environment but they can't do so in some sort of vaccuum immune from international criticism.

We no longer live in a world where things can be hidden all that well from international scrutiny. Japan also needs to realise that the internaitonal community is not going to just accept it's propaganda and political spin like most of it's own people do.

Countries can assert their right to make their own decisions in how they manage their own affairs but they have no right to expect to do so without crtiticism or possibly some sort of sanctions or other consequences for the decisions they make. If countries want to participate in international trade then they must expect to receive international criticism and deal with it in a well reasoned and mature manner. Simply claiming it's our country we can do whatever we want just doesn't cut it these days.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

@Ronin4hire.
I already addressed that.

Where did you address the environmental argument?

The environmental argument is that it is not sustainable and that big business cant be trusted to maintain quotas set when their operation is not even economically sustainable unless they surpass these quotas.

Not to mention that if Japan is allowed to whale, then you will have other Asian countries like Korea demanding that they be allowed too. (In fact they already do whale hunt though their quota is significantly smaller I think.)

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

The opinions of pro-environmental scientist doesn't count. I can predict exactly on what side of the line their opinions will land not because I am clairvoyant, but because they have an agenda. That is why science requires proof.

Its opinion based on their expertise, their findings. Its not like they made it up. You can read it anywhere. Are they predisposed to sympathy for the whale? Sure they are. But lets look at their findings upon which they BASE their opinions. All have been tested. And which do you think is more likely? Scientists make stuff up, risking their livelihood and their reputation in order to bolster their "agenda" or the whaling industry and their apologists playing stubborn, claiming that its not "proof". And of course it never will be proof for them and their apologists like yourself until they say in Japanese that they are self aware.

Like I said before. The dolphins passed the mirror test. Some species of whales have been observed communicating and organise themselves around a language, even referring to each other by what seems to be name, and speak in dialects.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Well, I can live with that since you acknowledged Japan will choose it's own path. and the path we choose may not be the right on for you, but it will be the right on for us.

Lets just examine the path Japan has chosen shall we?

You have a bunch of whaling lobbyists who are Japanese nationalists that are pissed off because commercial whaling was banned for ENVIRONMENTAL reasons. They have a lot of money and therefore have considerable influence amongst Japans corrupt politicians (Japanese politics is pretty much a joke among the international community, I mean Kan says some promising stuff... but so did his predecessor so lets see how long he lasts).

It is not even economically feasible to hunt whale without government subsidy which is what these lobbyists recieve.

Yeah... "good choice" Japan

Its not even a practical choice. Which is what makes the Sea Shepherds work important. For every whale they prevent the whalers from catching, that is more money that the Japanese government has to pay in order to sustain this industry.