Dolphin Slaughter in Taiji Begins September

[cranks]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I worked a couple of summers in cattle slaughter houses in Australia

This kind of first hand experience will be respected in Japan. Or I believe in anywhere.

Originally Posted by GoNative

All I am saying is that there are people who believe that dolphins do deserve special consideration, that they are not just like any other animal.

I think that is fine. People like smart mammals.

The thing is, how can your "belief" superior to other people's? If you have been following the discussion, you know it is THE nub of it. If they say "I like dolphins, so I want them have special considerations. I'll compensate for your losses, so can you please not kill them?" It will be taken a lot more positively. The logic, "I AM SUPERIOR TO YOU! YOU SHOUD LISTEN TO ME!! OR WE WILL ATTACK YOU!!!" genocided millions and millions of Muslims. Have you forgotten crusades?

Originally Posted by GoNative

There are also people who believe the way in which the dolphins are slaughtered in Taiji is cruel and unusual. It's not a matter of whether I agree with them or not which to be honest I don't.

We really don't know how the slaughter was. The movie, as I said, was taken in a very dishonest way. It is somewhat OK in the Western culture, but these kind of dishonest tactics just don't wash in Japan. If you have ever worked in Japan, you should know this. The reason why you are taking the side with that movie is because you speak mainly English. That's not your fault, but regardless a prejudice.

Originally Posted by GoNative

I do believe though these people have every right to express their outrage about what is occurring in Taiji and to protest against the slaughter.

Sure. You can say "Japs should die!" all day long. It's legal in Japan.

Originally Posted by GoNative

I don't believe it has anything to do with racism. This sort of slaughter of dolphins would be condemned no matter where it happened in the world. It is ridiculous to try and turn this into a racism issue.

It's your opinion. But you should consider the fact a lot of Japanese people, even the one like me who speak good enough English(I hope) to hold a prolonged debate, find it racism. I was actually anti-whaling several years ago. If you can't even see the blatant racism from the examples I brought up... I don't know...

Originally Posted by GoNative

I have absolutely no idea why you have brought up the nuclear bombings during WWII. What have they got to do with this issue? And I dislike nationalists in any country. Over the top patriotism is destructive anywhere it occurs. I am certainly not patriotic one little bit about my home country. Criticise it all you like

I was just hoping you get the idea. Japan was the first country that came up in the caucasian world. Nukes is just an example. I can come up with dozens. Yes, she herself did bad things to other countries, but still, before she stood up, coloreds were slaves. You don't understand. Japan had to fight white, Christian, "supremacy" for over 100 years and now she's getting this. Can you please please consider the possibility that "I don't care, I'm not patriotic type!" may not fly in an other culture? Imagine saying that to an Iraqi...

Originally Posted by GoNative

And I have had many arguments with friends over the years about their beliefs in religion and god. Sure people have a right to their beliefs but I reserve the right to criticise them for their beliefs

You are very cool, but I noticed how your attitude changed after I mentioned it is my "BELIEFS". I don't want to make it such a big deal, but some of you guys just don't get it that "A FUNDAMENTAL CULTURAL VALUE" is pretty much a synonym for religious beliefs. And yeah, I know what I'm talking about. I got a BA in International Cultures and wrote a thesis about Community.

[MissMisa]

If culture is similar to religion, then it should be okay to question it, criticize it and disagree with it.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

If culture is similar to religion, then it should be okay to question it, criticize it and disagree with it.

From the sociological view, Religion IS culture. And I totally agree with you. We should be able to discuss about it. I think Christianity and Muslim are A LOT more unforgiving, though they have a lot of good quality too, but the talk of religion is forbidden on this forum so I won't go into that.

Japanese beliefs are not explicitly expressed as a faith, but people are actually pretty religious in their own way. I just want some respect. Not to me, but to other Japanese people. Really. I BEG you to respect other cultures. It's hard, I know. But unless we try, there is only war.

[bleep]

the problem with this issue is the concept of "orientalism" as stressed by edward said, wherein he says that there's a phenomenon in the western world wherein they see the middle east, as for our case, the entire asia within the western lens; thereby, whatever the western culture says barbaric or whathaveyou, damn us.

in our side of the globe, we have been judged for eating dogs, as part of our culture, when in fact it was actually the americans, who taught the northerners to eat dogs to survive during ww2, since livestock are dying at that time and dogs are pretty much abundant. however, until now, they (americans) are still denying it. on the otherhand, since that certain province has adopted the practise as a means to survival, it has became their culture and we dog-loving southerners have no power over it; yet, our country is being generalised by dog-loving westerners as dog-eaters, which is unfair. to some extent, japan and us have the same "damn you __-eaters/killers" experience" (disclaimer: i am not implying that the american may have also taught whaling to the japanese ok? clear!)

i have watched the cove and am quite disturbed, as i have been swimming and diving with dolphins at my mom's province all my life. yes, the movie revealed quite a lot with regard to the slaughter and how some locals would tend to cover up the act; but then again, as what others have mentioned, regardless whether this is a culture issue or not - if the japanese have proven by solid historic evidence that whaling is a culture similar to the scandinavian cultures - so be it. let's just respect no matter how gruesome it may seem to other cultures. and also, as others have also mentioned and as it has been reiterated in the movie, not all japanese are aware of it. on this note, i would like to conclude that the issue of "the cove" would be more appropriately addressed if taken on the side of "personal sentiments" rather than of culture.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by cranks

From the sociological view, Religion IS culture. And I totally agree with you. We should be able to discuss about it. I think Christianity and Muslim are A LOT more unforgiving, though they have a lot of good quality too, but the talk of religion is forbidden on this forum so I won't go into that.

Japanese beliefs are not explicitly expressed as a faith, but people are actually pretty religious in their own way. I just want some respect. Not to me, but to other Japanese people. Really. I BEG you to respect other cultures. It's hard, I know. But unless we try, there is only war.

I just can't believe where you are taking this debate. What is happening in Taiji is not about culture it's about good old simple greed. Some local fisherman have worked out a way to help protect their fish stocks by killing off a whole lot predators that eat fish and to make some money off selling the meat. I personally don't have any big problem with this at all. Good on them!

One thing this is not is some huge cultural issue. What you don't seem to get cranks is that Japan is intricately part of the international community. Japan, even in it's own country, can't just do anything it wants without criticism. No country can. Countries all over the world come under criticism all the time for things they do in their own countries.

During the previous government in Australia, a very conservative government, they cracked down massively on asylum seekers arriving in Australia by boat. I personally was appalled at their policies and so were many in the international community. Some Australians claimed other countries had no right to tell us how we should manage our borders. I disagreed, we needed to be told we were doing the wrong thing as good sense seem to have left many of the Australian public after years of quite effective government propaganda. One thing they never claimed though was that the attacks on the policies from other countries were racist!

I'm not saying the Taiji issue is some major international issue for Japan because in reality it's not. It's only some very vocal and well organised animal rights groups making a lot of noise. I haven't exactly heard of any foreign governments putting any pressure on Japan over the issue. Yes there has been pressure to drop the whaling outside of Japanese waters but that's a whole other issue.

The thing I see from the somewhat ridiculous arguments you are putting forward though is an incredible defensiveness and intolerance to any criticism from anyone outside of Japan or anyone who is not Japanese. And using cultural excuses and the racism card to deflect the criticism away from the actual issue, the slaughter of dolphins, and try and make into something else. If you think there is something so incredibly special about Japanese culture and the Japanese people that make it and them immune from criticism then it is you who seems to have the superiority complex. Being part of an international community means you will be criticised now and again, for gods sake get used to it and stop being so defensive about it!

And trying to discredit my views because I'm not fluent in the language well look I've lived here almost 7 years. I do speak a reasonable amount of Japanese and I do have lots of very good Japanese and western friends who are completely fluent in speaking, reading and writing in English and Japanese. I don't live in an information vacuum because of my lack of fluency and I don't just get one side of the story. And I certainly didn't just get my information on Taiji from The Cove. I haven't even seen the movie!

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by cranks

Ronin,

"BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!" is not logic. And you know it. I'm not Dolphin, so I don't care about them. You are not Dolphin, so you have no business with them. Cod Erat Demonstrandum.

You are human, so you are more "emotionally attached" to human. Yes. That's natural. But that's not a logic. Social animal species NEED to care about their own species. Or it's actually the other way around. They cared about each other, so they survived. That's how we evolved. That's why our species survived according to the Darwinist view. Now if you don't believe in evolution, please tell me so, because that'll change things a lot.

Assuming you believe in evolution, you care about humans more than pigs, because that's how our species survived. It is a "CAUSE" of our species' survival. It is not "logic". We are "made" to be that way.

How inhuman of you, Ronin, to say dogs don't have "selves" and therefore we can kill them and eat them as we please? I bet I could get a majority of English speaking people, or any human who didn't eat dog, on my side with this argument if we were talking about dogs. According to your logic, dogs don't have selves so we can kill them. How dare you say that? Haven't you a heart? :P

Really, if you think you can convince any dog owner with your "logic" of "non-self-aware animals can be killed and eaten", try it. You'll fail. Most humankind don't care if their dogs recognize their own optical images in a mirror or not. The mirror test? That's just freaking bogus. Dogs have selves. That's a given. Whatever "LOGIC" you employ won't move their hearts a bit.

Likewise, whatever "logic" I employ to "prove" that the species you call "whales" don't have "selves" will be moot. You'll just deny it, or just won't care. Everybody knows that, so please don't casually say you care about logic in the heat of a moment unless you really have a very good "logic". This topic is really about my, and a lot of Japanese people's, "beliefs". Please don't play it down. Please treat it as you treat your friends' Christian beliefs. I'm not saying "don't even talk about it", I do like to talk about it and I do appreciate your candidness. But please acknowledge that my opinion here is not something I concocted after I engaged in this discussion. It is a product of over a couple of decades of deliberation, backed, somewhat, by over a couple of thousands of years of the history of the Eastern philosophy.

You have said you are morally superior to people in Taichi and indirectly me. But if you are so morally superior, I think you should care about your own countries' inhumanity to your fellow human race first and foremost. I have brought up several racial discrimination cases by the anti-whaling folks here. And I've noticed you haven't made any comment whatsoever on that and just kept going on about whales. As I said, I like whales, but the racism to my race is more important for me than the whales. Coloreds are stabbed and killed by the racists in your country and the one next to it. What are all these "morally superior" people doing with whales? PEOPLE are being MURDERED because of racism IN YOUR COUNTRY! and these anti-whaling people are actually INCITING the racism!

Racism is hard to see when you are the majority. Myself included of course. It was a good experience that I got a racial slur in the UK on the street. (not to bash the UK. Racism happens everywhere and I think the UK is one of the better countries. It was just a stupid brad). It made my eyes open to racism and how I was so insensitive to it. I'm no better than you or anybody, but in this particular case I'm the working end of the racism, so I see more than you do. I brought up the example of Japanese mocked on street on Australian TV, but even Misa, who I believe is a very liberal person, failed to perceive it as an extremely racist act until I present the hypothesized example of Japanese people mocking Koreans on TV. Again, racism is hard to see when you are the majority. There are hundreds of thousands of racist remarks on the web regrading whaling. Sure, there are hundreds of thousands of racial remarks on the web by Japanese too, but I would NEVER EVER allow that in a group I belong to, and it is a more serious problem than most anything to me, more than the animal welfare for sure.

You probably remember how I was so worked up with Debito. I don't think he's evil to the core, he can even be a good person to hang out with. But I'm sorry, he is a bigoted racist. If posting the comic strip called "A Little Yellow Jap" that mocks Japanese race on the web, for whatever reason, doesn't earn him the racist title, I don't know what will. He is an "activist" on discrimination but he thinks it is totally fine to post that thing in public. Racism is that hard to recognize sometime.

I won't close this post with [/RANT]. It was out of modesty to do so in the last post. But this time I want my message to be clear. This is how I actually feel and what I believe in. No hard feelings though. I like your straightness and I thank you for giving me a chance to express our side of view, Ronin.

You are crazy.. your post went all over the place. Debito? Racism? Evolution? (which I belief is a scientific fact).. this has nothing to do with the argument. Furthermore, the only one bringing up race is you? Let me say it again... there are JAPANESE people that agree with me and WESTERN people that (stupidly) agree with you. This is NOT about Japan against the West. Evidently very few people in Japan eat Whale or Dolphin anyway.

As I said before Im only concerned with addressing the points you made concerning my points (X Y and Z) of the whaling argument.

I still cant believe that you are having trouble grasping the logic.

I have business with Dolphins because to me they are self aware animals JUST LIKE ME AND YOU. They have the ability to comprehend their own death. Animals that arent self aware feel "emotions" based on pure instinct. Self aware animals not only feel that but recognise their impending doom. A cow or a pig in a field does not apparently.

Let me lay it out for you. I believe that killing animals that are self aware is wrong.

This in itself isnt a logical statement. But if you put it in context within human society then it is the only humane conclusion that one could come to.

And I dont know why you continue to say that Im wrong about the whales and dolphins. Ive given you scientists and links which say Im right. That is good enough for me and the doubts you are casting on such opinion is not very convincing. After all, you gave me a link claiming that is said that "dolphins werent self aware" and when I checked the link it said that a strong argument can be made that they WERE self aware though the tests didnt prove outright. If that is not good enough for you then Im at the point where I think nothing will convince you.

I dont think I said anywhere that dogs werent self aware therefore we should eat them... you are putting words in my mouth.
I can probably give other reasons for why I wouldnt eat dogs. Just like I can give other reasons why I wont eat babies.

When you say that I advocate eating babies and dogs because I dont feel that self aware animals should be killed, let alone eaten then you are making a huge error in logic.

You are absolutely right about one thing. I feel that I am morally superior to the people who support whaling and dolphin hunting. I even feel morally superior to those that eat meat as I rarely eat meat except when Im a guest at someones house etc.

Anyway... I think we've exhausted the directions in which we can go from here concernig whaling and dolphin hunting.

If you want to have a discussion about why I think it is wrong to kill animals that are not self aware then feel free to do so with me.

[bleep]

Originally Posted by cranks

A lot of people in Japan think these activists are racist. And I agree.

i will have to disagree with this one. i totally abhor whaling because i got my own personal attachments with dolphins and whales and not because of the japanese people doing such acts. thus; i said before, i take the issue of whaling on a personal note.

the problem with some activists is they tend to generalise the whole scenario, which would normally start from a personal realisation (flipper's suicide as for the cove) and would make it a higher cause. on the other hand, some japanese are quite offended by the documentary because they are being scorned by millions of people for the gruesome slaughter; thereby generalising everyone as racist due to the fact that the naye-sayers are throwing lines such as "your government", "the japanese", "japan" to refer to the culprits. also, the problem with media, when the subject is way too emotional, hyperbola and myopia are often abused just to catch people's attention.

[edit to add]

so there... if you'd like to take the whaling issue as something personal, we can go ahead and talk endlessly about our personal sentiments, as i think this is where the argument is leading to. however, let's also be rational and not point fingers at anyone or any country, as everyone's also at fault here.

[GoNative]

ronin it's becoming a pointless argument don't you agree? We're dealing with someone who cannot accept any form of criticism of Japan from any foreigner. Evidently the only people who can comment on or criticise anything about Japan are the Japanese, who are of course completely totally impartial and extremely well informed observers. I mean the media here is just so awesome isn't?

Any comments made by a foreigner are invalid because none of us could possibly even come close to having the slightest understanding of this incredibly unique and oh so very special culture. One so special that only the Japanese themselves can understand it enough to make any informed opinions. And of course we're all racist anyway. Any comments we make are always tainted by this racism. Even those of us who've chosen to live and raise our families here, we are all still racists too! How dare we ever express views or opinions on this great nation we can never truly understand?

The twists and turns this debate has taken are just so ludicrous!

I mean what a nationalistic nutter!! Quite scary in a way as he's certainly not alone in this sort of thinking...

[Ronin4hire]

I agree with you on that GoNative and on mostly everything you posted before.

Its sad that this is being turned into a nationalist feud as I think the sooner this is recognised that for the most part this should have nothing to do with race or nations then we (being people who share my position) can start getting a lot of support in Japan.

Anyway.. I am done for now concerning whaling and dolphins specifically but I will continue with the discussion on to what extent killing animals in general is right or wrong if cranks, or anyone else wishes to pursues it.

[bleep]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Anyway.. I am done for now concerning whaling and dolphins specifically but I will continue with the discussion on to what extent killing animals in general is right or wrong if cranks, or anyone else wishes to pursues it.

... should've been the right path to this argument