Dolphin Slaughter in Taiji Begins September

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by cranks

It's yes and no. ゴンドウ(Pilot whale) is a whale in English, but often called a dolphin(イルカ) in Japanese. The difference between dolphin and whale is biologically non existent. We just call smaller toothed whales dolphins. If you scrutinize my previous link, you'll see what's actually going on.

Yes, I'm aware, I was just pointing out how the media in ~english~ is deliberately using the word "dolphin" when we would normally use "whale". This is probably what's particularly inflaming the protests from a lot of foreigners.

Originally Posted by cranks

http://kokushi.job.affrc.go.jp/H20/H20_45.html

The hunting method that was shown in The Cove is called 追込 and done exclusively in Taichi today. As I said, Taichi is a small town and they only hunt a bit more than 1000 a year. In 2007, they got 300 ハンドウイルカ (bottle nose dolphin, The dolphin) and sold 77 to aquariums. I believe 223 were slaughtered and sold as meat. They probably stopped this because of the protest. I'm not sure what happened to スジイルカ (striped dolphin) this year. 384 were killed in 2007.

The majority of "Dolphin hunting" is done in 岩手 where almost 10,000 "イルカ" are hunted. The method they use is basically a scaled down whaling that use harpoons. The species hunted there are イシイルカ and リクゼンイルカ which are called porpoise in English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dall%27s_porpoise). I don't think this is affected by the protest in any way.

Again, I think there's been some confusion. The hunts in 岩手 were highlighted a year or two ago, so a number of people I've mentioned Taichi to have automatically assumed it was of the kind and scale of Iwate, or indeed, actually Iwate. Dall's Porpoise probably wouldn't incite a protest as much as other species as they aren't threatened and don't have any real conservation status yet. I think I need to steel myself and actually watch The Cove...

Originally Posted by cranks

So several hundred dolphins had been killed every year prier to 2007, and probably sold as meat. And the activist seem to have stopped this. But that's by employing this much racism.

dolphin fucking "japs" - Google Search

Several hundred dead dolphins costs only $100,000 or so… A tiny fraction of the budget of the activists. It's scary that some people love dolphins and whales more than fellow humankind.

I think I'm pretty conflicted really, I do love whales and dolphins, and I do think we should find a way to phase out the majority of whaling, with leeway for sustenance whalers, but I find these kinds of methods activists use rather abhorrent. I'm not getting into loving Whales Vs loving Humans, because to be honest, the people of Taichi have the ability to make a decision not to hunt whales or explore other ways to generate meat and revenue, whereas whales can't really choose not to be hunted. It's not about loving one species more than another, it's about finding a viable compromise that will ensure the welfare of both.

I don't think simply paying up for the cost of the meat year-in year-out is a solution though, even if it is a tiny part of the budget. Rather, some kind of diplomatic solution should be found and the advertising money spent slating the hunters should be put into helping areas develop away from economic dependance on hunting, if that is the case. Or even simply developing more humane ways to slaughter. It's like veal; for many years people refused to eat it, and it had bad press because rearing methods were cruel. Now a more humane way has been developed and it's now a cruelty free source of food.
It might still be seen as foreigners muscling in on tradition, but it would be an entirely more diplomatic way to handle it than simple aggression tactics and smear campaigns. It's also a way that movements within Japan could more easily work with, or ideally, spearhead.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Yes, I'm aware, I was just pointing out how the media in ~english~ is deliberately using the word "dolphin" when we would normally use "whale". This is probably what's particularly inflaming the protests from a lot of foreigners.

I should have known better. But thanks for giving me the chance to elaborate

Originally Posted by Columbine

Again, I think there's been some confusion. The hunts in 岩手 were highlighted a year or two ago, so a number of people I've mentioned Taichi to have automatically assumed it was of the kind and scale of Iwate, or indeed, actually Iwate. Dall's Porpoise probably wouldn't incite a protest as much as other species as they aren't threatened and don't have any real conservation status yet. I think I need to steel myself and actually watch The Cove...

I see. And I feel the confusion is rather deliberated if it was caused by The Cove. I disagree that porpoise wouldn't incite a protest because they are not threatened though. They don't incite a protest because they are not as cute. 6000 porpoises are killed in the US annually by fishing net, some are species that is endangered. Yet you don't see nearly as many protests against it as there are to the Japanese. There are only 8000 bowhead whales worldwide, and the US is hunting about 25-40 of them annually. Again. Not so many protests. Bottlenose dolphin on the other hand, is not endangered at all, but killing of this species caused people to rise hell as we witnessed with The Cove.

Originally Posted by Columbine

I don't think simply paying up for the cost of the meat year-in year-out is a solution though, even if it is a tiny part of the budget.

I'm definitely not suggesting they pay up for the cost. Not permanently anyway. But $100,000 is a tiny tiny market, it should be, or should HAVE been, really easy to create an alternative for that.

Originally Posted by Columbine

It might still be seen as foreigners muscling in on tradition,

I don't think these guys care about exactly how they hunt whales. They would rather hunt minkes than dolphins anyway. They adopted a newer method that is supposed to kill dolphins quickly in 2000 too. Again, they have families to support. Dolphins may not have means to defend themselves, but nor do cows, chickens or pigs. They aren't any different from farmers in the US in that sense. I feel something is amiss when people from Hollywood who earn millions come all the way to Japan and bash these poor fishermen who earn 1/100th of what they do.

Originally Posted by Columbine

but it would be an entirely more diplomatic way to handle it than simple aggression tactics and smear campaigns. It's also a way that movements within Japan could more easily work with, or ideally, spearhead.

Very true. If people try to understand each other a bit more…

Really, you don't find many Japanese people who actually want to eat whale. But it is an important and fundamental Japanese cultural value that all life forms are equal in principle. Many westerners are missing that point. Japanese people take smear campaigns more seriously too.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by cranks

I see. And I feel the confusion is rather deliberated. I disagree that porpoise wouldn't incite a protest because they are not threatened though. They don't incite a protest because they are not as cute.

This is probably a good part of it. It's the degree of profile too- plenty of activists will protest about the use of laboratory mice for medical science, but I have yet to hear of a serious protest about the £3 million + spent on killing billions of mice and rats each year in London by the British government. Same species. Even flimsier reason for killing them. But still, conservation status does come into it. You can kill certain deer in the UK year round, because they are numerous and breed well. You can only shoot red deer in certain places, within strict seasons as they are less numerous and a valuable native species.

Originally Posted by cranks

I'm definitely not suggesting they pay up for the cost. Not permanently anyway. But $100,000 is a tiny tiny market, it should be, or should HAVE been, really easy to create an alternative for that.

Exactly, and nor is it on the massive international scale like gorilla poaching is, which has been successfully limited or eradicated in some areas. I think it all ties in with a failure to produce a calm solution.

Originally Posted by cranks

Again, they have families to support. Dolphins may not have means to defend them, but nor do cows, chickens or pigs. They aren't any different from farmers in the US in that sense. I feel something is amiss when people from Hollywood who earn millions come all the way to Japan and bash these poor fishermen who earn 1/100th of what they do.

.
I kind of disagree that whales and dolphins aren't different from domestic meat stock, for precisely that; we breed animals specifically for eating, we don't breed and maintain whales for eating, we simply leech from wild stocks. It's exactly why the Bluefin Tuna is in trouble; we can't domesticate it and it's harder to regulate wild populations because they're not under our direct manipulation. Pressure from a severe population slump have finally driven us to find a way, but mammals don't breed as numerously as fish, so we should be careful it doesn't get to that stage. Anyway, what I meant was, yes we should value human lives more, but we should also accept responsibility for the species we take sustenance from. For me it's not about putting animal rights over peoples' right to earn a living and feed their families, it's maintaining ethics and standards for -both- parties.

Hollywood sucks on many levels.

Originally Posted by cranks

Really, you don't find many Japanese people who actually want to eat whale. But it is an important and fundamental Japanese cultural value that all life forms are equal in principle. Many westerners are missing that point. Japanese people take smear campaigns more seriously too.

This. Most people in Japan have about as much real contact with whaling as people in the UK or America; basically none. When whale meat appeared in the supermarket and I mentioned I'd bought some by mistake, several of the japanese students simply laughed and told me I was mistaken because "Japanese people don't eat whale nowadays." Until I showed them the packet. Then they were pretty shocked. A small example, but I reckon to most modern Japanese kids, eating whale seems as weird and antiquated to them as eating a pig's head is to us.

[steven]

I don't want to get too involved in this conversation, but I have seen whale meat quite frequently in the stores near my place. In fact, there was a whole lot of whale sashimi two days ago at the market I go to the most. I've seen it at other stores as well, and I'm not even sure it's a seasonal thing to be honest (although I feel like I've seen more than ever before in the last year... particularly since the spring. It could just be me becoming more aware of it though). People around here don't seem to really be offended or even all that embarassed by whale meat. However, when I went to a certain festival in Ishikawa-ken in Februrary (of 2009), I bought what was basically a sashimi-don (a whole lot of sashimi piled on some rice). They gave me some extra meat for free and threw in some whale meat with the "shhh" gesture.

I'm not gonna try to elaborate on the "shhh" gesture or it being widely available in stores around here... I just wanted to pass that information on to give another account on the whale-awareness in Japan. Unlike your situation, Columbine, I don't think people would be surprised in finding whale meat at the store at all (edit: in my area).

[Kufufunofu]

^same i won't try to get too into the convo...
but after watching the cove,i definitely think the dolphin slaughter should stop...is it more for the money? because i think there is enough food supply :x

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I kind of disagree that whales and dolphins aren't different from domestic meat stock, for precisely that; we breed animals specifically for eating, we don't breed and maintain whales for eating, we simply leech from wild stocks. It's exactly why the Bluefin Tuna is in trouble; we can't domesticate it and it's harder to regulate wild populations because they're not under our direct manipulation. Pressure from a severe population slump have finally driven us to find a way, but mammals don't breed as numerously as fish, so we should be careful it doesn't get to that stage.

From wildlife conservation stand point of view, you are totally right. But then with that stand point, killing bottlenose dolphins would be totally OK, which I don't think many want it to happen.

And yes, Hollywood sucks on many levels.

Originally Posted by steven

I just wanted to pass that information on to give another account on the whale-awareness in Japan. Unlike your situation, Columbine, I don't think people would be surprised in finding whale meat at the store at all (edit: in my area).

There are some regions in Japan that have the tradition of whaling. Japan is a country which has diverse cultures. Overall though, I don't think there are many places where people eat whale regularly. Definitely not Tokyo. Eating whale is very common in one region, and totally weird in others. You probably know this but just to clarify.

Originally Posted by Kufufunofu

^same i won't try to get too into the convo...
but after watching the cove,i definitely think the dolphin slaughter should stop...is it more for the money? because i think there is enough food supply :x

You just completely ignore what I have been saying and just casually fire away "I watched The Cove and I think they should stop killing dolphins!!".

I swear. I'll eat dolphin meat just to bug you if you don't re-read the thread right now.

[chiuchimu]

Its no one elses business. As long as its in Japanese water or land, then Japan can do what it wants. If it's purchased from another nation then it's a legal transaction as far as Japan is concerned.

Man, this is called Japan Forum, Isn't there any Japanese here?

[cranks]

There's one here if you haven't noticed.

And I don't think it's nobody's business. Japan is a free country and everybody is entitled to express their opinion.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by cranks

Ronin,

Anyway, both of your reasonings are flawed so you should stop supporting anti-whaling activists.

- The fact you don't support factory farming doesn't have anything to do with this argument. The US consumes 10 times more meat than Japan do.

Im not on the side of the US. Im on the side of the environmentalists. Thats where you fail to see the variety of arguments on the anti whaling side. Instead of seperating the governments from the environmentalists you lump all the arguments together. The only thing that links the environmentalists and governments that are opposed to whaling is that they want the same thing.

Originally Posted by cranks

Why do the activists go all the way to the end of the world to protest against whaling that produce only 0.03% of meat, i.e. kill less than 0.03% of lives, the US do?

Its more than just about meat.

As I said before. Opening up commercial whaling would make whales extinct. This could have bad consequences on the environment. It almost happened once already.

Furthermore, Whaling occurs in INTERNATIONAL waters. The INTERNATIONAL community has decided that whaling is illegal.

Originally Posted by cranks

Why don't they sabotage their local slaughterhouse? Why don't Discovery channel air "Cow War" or "Chicken War" or "Pig War", and attack their local farmers? Come on, we are talking about more than 30,000 times the lives here. That's only logical right? The reason is that it is "culturally" more acceptable to kill cows or chickens or pigs than whales in the West, well, more specifically, in the English speaking countries. It IS about whalers versus anti-whalers, and it IS about some western culture versus Japanese culture. It's a crusade against whaling. And crusade is a synonym for racism and massacre in some parts of the world.

The culture argument is bullshit. And lets not just say its a Western thing. Countries like Indonesia and Malaysia are against Japan for whaling too... because they recognise the ENVIRONMENTAL impact that commercial whaling would bring.

You want to know why the Discovery Channel made Whale wars? Money...

Originally Posted by cranks

The question is, what makes you, or anybody, be the judge on what human race can kill and eat? It's not just about whales. Some people think animals can not be killed, but fish is OK. Some think killing anything that moves is cruel. There are some who think only taking windfalls is appropriate. And there is the extreme. Some think killing bacteria is a sin and refuse to drink water in order to avoid taking the lives of them, and subsequently die. It's all arbitrary. Sure, dolphins are cute and I don't want them to be killed. But you, not Ronin specifically but you in general, don't need to be on a high horse preaching about how your morals is better than others.

I can preach that my morals are better than Taiji peoples morals because I can logically argue against it.

The fact is that Dolphins are intelligent animals that have self-awareness. This makes killing them cruel.

Culture is not a defense for barbaric behaviour against logical reasoning.

[evanny]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The fact is that Dolphins are intelligent animals that have self-awareness. This makes killing them cruel.

what a load of s**t.
so. again - ones life depends on cutnes or the inteligence level not on the fact that its simply something a live?
EVERYBODY! get your tourches, lets go over the the retarded children home! killing dumb creatures is ok!!! EI! i know a nice place were homless people hang around - they are as dumb as they come! wow - let me get my axe and well be off, being morally normal, because we are killing stupid, living things, and not itellingent living things.

you are so full of it, dude.