Dolphin Slaughter in Taiji Begins September

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Thought it worth mentioning, but ~some~ pigs have been shown to be self-aware. Or at least, they can understand a reflection; they may fail the dot test, but they can rationalize the image of a food bucket in a mirror and realize they need to go around a wall or something, rather than look behind the mirror. But it's only really been tested in a few breeds in a few non-representative locations under informal conditions, so we have no idea how universal this is, or even if it's simply that those pigs were particularly smart. Certainly unlike other self-aware animals, pigs haven't really been shown to exhibit mourning.

Interesting stuff.. thanks for sharing. I try not to eat meat anyway.. I mean Im not a strict vegetarian but I dont like to eat too much meat.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by kujiratyan

WHAT A LIE!!
You should know better.
Just google!

Well not a lie.... I should have said commercial whaling.

It was a mistake.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

That's not whats really happening. This is about foreigners trying to impose their cultural values on us.

These same foreigners have a closet full of ghosts concerning their own meat industries. Just because they think whales are cute, they have moral ground to tell us what we should do on our own land and coastal waters? That's not free speech.

PS: glad your a native too. I was at AsiaFinest.com were there are no Japanese anymore but a ridicules amount of anti-Japan trolling going on. Came here hoping to find a large Japanese community here.

You are an idiot.

Its not because whales are cute.

Its because Japan is clearly commercially hunting whale when it is prohibited.

The REASON it is prohibited is because resuming full commercial whaling would result in many species of whale becoming extinct.

Also I have also presented my argument that whales are self-aware animals.

[evanny]

ok. whales go extinct..big whoop? every day on avarage 25 spiecies go extinct. and ..do you see stock market crashing, sky burning? no. because spiecies going extinct is normal - its us who are making fuss because we dont like that things change and we can't control them. thats all it is.
more than 95% of speacies that has ever lived on this planet are gone. we are only to blame for a small % of everything..rest is nature at its work - faild mutations are bound to go extinct. so will we

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Interesting stuff.. thanks for sharing. I try not to eat meat anyway.. I mean Im not a strict vegetarian but I dont like to eat too much meat.

P.S lol.. Mr. i dont like to eat much meat of self-aware animals. its like saying i only have a small bite of that childs leg, because we who are self-aware are all equal, but i am still hungry.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by cranks

Under the freedom of speech, you can express whatever opinion you want as long as it is not illegal. They can say whatever they want. I'm free to think and say some people are bigoted racists too.

I'm not trying to "win" an argument here. Rather, I am trying to promote understandings. I don't want to sound arrogant but I see how Ronin thinks and where his "logic" is coming from. What I'm trying to do is not to convert him to a whale eater, but to help bring about an understanding that there are cultures that are fundamentally different from your own. To be honest, I don't care that much about dolphins and whales themselves. There is an episode of Southpark called Whale Whore, which pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue.

Unfortunately for you... I dont share your definition of "culture"

For me culture is not a static thing... it is a fluid thing. It changes and reimagines itself constantly. Japanese culture today is not the same as Japanese culture 100 years ago. Western culture today is not the same as Western culture 100 years ago etc.

In fact it was ACCEPTED in Western culture that whaling was acceptable up until the mid 20th century before Westerners realised that Whales were going to be extinct very shortly if they didnt stop. Also, New Zealand which had a huge whaling industry is now one of the biggest anti-whaling countries out there. So I dont know why the Japanese think the whole "Its our culture" argument is valid. Its bullshit and it shows a lack of progress and extreme Conservatism to present it as an argument.

Muslims in Africa also use the "culture" argument for circumcision of women for example. Is that the kind of argument you want to make?

And culture is NEVER an excuse and will NEVER beat rational and logical arguments.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by evanny

ok. whales go extinct..big whoop? every day on avarage 25 spiecies go extinct. and ..do you see stock market crashing, sky burning? no. because spiecies going extinct is normal - its us who are making fuss because we dont like that things change and we can't control them. thats all it is.
more than 95% of speacies that has ever lived on this planet are gone. we are only to blame for a small % of everything..rest is nature at its work - faild mutations are bound to go extinct. so will we

Big whoop indeed. Whales are actually near the top of the food chain in the ocean. Getting rid of whales will have a HUGE effect on the eco-system.

Newsflash.... Species going extinct due to our overconsumption is a bad thing.

Originally Posted by evanny

P.S lol.. Mr. i dont like to eat much meat of self-aware animals. its like saying i only have a small bite of that childs leg, because we who are self-aware are all equal, but i am still hungry.

What are you talking about? You have clearly misunderstood something Ive said because that just made no sense.

[evanny]

you are like the worst candidate to defend nature.
a minute ago you said that it is soooo wrong to eat dolphins soly because they are self-aware. now that pigs are also comes the dilema "shit..i love hamburgers and bakon..but they are smart...maybe i could have bacon only on sundays and burgers only on wendsdays...yea that should be fine" - thats your logic...jesus, and i thought you were trolling with your profile picture but apperantly you are special...can rest of us eat you?

and you still havent based any single damn fact in this whole topic except for your opinion that we should not eat self aware animals. thats it. nothing else.
unlike we who give you damn statistics and actual insides and even japanese themselfs say you are full of it!!!

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I was referring to you thinking that a few Western governments and the environmentalists are saying the same thing.

Please don't read my mind but my words. Please present MY sentence that made you think this way. I have never talked about Western governments.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

It seems you see the anti whaling side as a collection of people with the same arguments and agendas where in fact it is a collection of arguments from various people with different agendas.

Again, please present MY sentence that made you think this way.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I support ONE of the MANY various anti-whaling positions out there.

It is YOUR responsibility to present that ONE position. You keep accusing me of failing to understand this and that, when you haven't presented anything yourself.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You and the majority of Japanese make this mistake because the Japanese government and media portrays the whaling issue in this way.

Oh, NOW it's about Japanese eh?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You are just paranoid. I see an environmentalist movement who is picking its battles wisely. Furthermore, different organizations have different purposes.

OK. My view is different from yours so I'm paranoid. Very well.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I didnt concede anything. I based my facts on the movie the cove and other websites and articles Ive read. You said it isnt so without giving me any sort of link... I cant prove you wrong... you cant prove me wrong... and it wasnt my main argument.

I posted the link below just 4 posts before your first post here. I'd be nice if you can pay a little more attention to what other people are saying before starting to preach what you believe is morally superior.

"OK. This seems to be more of the case than anything else. Mercury concentration varies depending largely on the species.
http://www.mhlw.go.jp/topics/bukyoku...50812-1-05.pdf"

Your argument is based on a movie and some website articles. OK. I understand.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Now you are just getting confused because we were talking about 2 issues at once. I am not defending the activists completely. But I am on their side as I dont want to see legalization of commercial whaling.

Again. Please Please pay a little more attention to what people are saying, and stop reading people's mind. Nobody was talking about commercial whaling.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Well the Discovery Channel did it for the money. I am pretty sure that Sea Shepherd did it for awareness purposes first and foremost.

You are the one who said Japan should obey the INTERNATIONAL community. And you are now supporting Sea Shepherd which is banned from the INTERNATIONAL whaling community, and employing methods that are clearly against the INTERNATIONAL law. Your logic is very expedient. You say one thing, but don't stick to your own logic and start saying something totally irrelevant or something that contradicts with your previous logic. I feel that you are arguing just because you don't wanna lose.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I am really starting to question your intelligence.

Thanks for a very intelligent remark.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Self-awareness is not the ONLY parameter to be considered obviously.

Well, again, YOU are the one who said the LOGICAL reasoning is that "The fact is that Dolphins are intelligent animals that have self-awareness. This makes killing them cruel". and AGAIN, you started saying "well that's not the only thing" when your logic is refuted. So what is your LOGICAL reasoning after all? And will you keep inventing a new "logical reasoning" every time it is refuted? If so, please let me know now. I'll give up.

Thanks,

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Unfortunately for you... I dont share your definition of "culture"

For me culture is not a static thing... it is a fluid thing. It changes and reimagines itself constantly. Japanese culture today is not the same as Japanese culture 100 years ago. Western culture today is not the same as Western culture 100 years ago etc.

In fact it was ACCEPTED in Western culture that whaling was acceptable up until the mid 20th century before Westerners realised that Whales were going to be extinct very shortly if they didnt stop. Also, New Zealand which had a huge whaling industry is now one of the biggest anti-whaling countries out there. So I dont know why the Japanese think the whole "Its our culture" argument is valid. Its bullshit and it shows a lack of progress and extreme Conservatism to present it as an argument.

Muslims in Africa also use the "culture" argument for circumcision of women for example. Is that the kind of argument you want to make?

And culture is NEVER an excuse and will NEVER beat rational and logical arguments.

As I said, I am not trying to convert you to a whale eater or make you support whaling. What I am dealing with here is a bit deeper, and it will help you be understood by Japanese people if you get the gist of what I'm saying. You might not have paid attention, but as I said, it is a fundamental Japanese cultural value that all life forms are equal in principle. You are trying to establish an arbitrary ranking among different life forms. Whale is better than pig, pig is better than fish. Only God can establish such a ranking. And you are obviously not God.

That's not to say we shouldn't be more attached to one species than another. We all like smart mammals than fish and that's a natural, probably a good, emotion. But just because you are more attached to whales than pigs, it doesn't make you a superior being. That attitude is based on the feeling of superiority and it will easily lead to racism. See just how many people started saying "fucking Japs!" regarding the dolphin hunt. It reminds me that Hitler was a vegetarian.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by cranks

Please don't read my mind but my words. Please present MY sentence that made you think this way. I have never talked about Western governments.

I never said you did! I used the "Western governments" as an example of the various positions that are held on the issue! Stop pulling at straws here dude. It was a response on your assuming of all sorts of things about the "anti whaling position" when there are MANY anti whaling positions out there.

Originally Posted by cranks

Again, please present MY sentence that made you think this way.

Page 5
You say

- The fact you don't support factory farming doesn't have anything to do with this argument. The US consumes 10 times more meat than Japan do. Why do the activists go all the way to the end of the world to protest against whaling that produce only 0.03% of meat, i.e. kill less than 0.03% of lives, the US do? Why don't they sabotage their local slaughterhouse? Why don't Discovery channel air "Cow War" or "Chicken War" or "Pig War", and attack their local farmers? Come on, we are talking about more than 30,000 times the lives here. That's only logical right? The reason is that it is "culturally" more acceptable to kill cows or chickens or pigs than whales in the West, well, more specifically, in the English speaking countries. It IS about whalers versus anti-whalers, and it IS about some western culture versus Japanese culture. It's a crusade against whaling. And crusade is a synonym for racism and massacre in some parts of the world.

There are many other examples but this is the first in which you treat the anti-whaling argument as one big argument where in fact it is hundreds of smaller ones with different agendas and different ideologies.

Originally Posted by cranks

It is YOUR responsibility to present that ONE position. You keep accusing me of failing to understand this and that, when you haven't presented anything yourself.

I stated my position in my very first entry into this thread and numerous times since then.

Originally Posted by cranks

Oh, NOW it's about Japanese eh?

Fuck off... Dont pull the race card. If you do then youve lost.

Originally Posted by cranks

OK. My view is different from yours so I'm paranoid. Very well.

Originally Posted by cranks

I posted the link below just 4 post before your first post here. I'd be nice if you can pay a little more attention to what other people are saying before starting to preach what you believe is morally superior.

"OK. This seems to be more of the case than anything else. Mercury concentration varies depending largely on the species.
http://www.mhlw.go.jp/topics/bukyoku...50812-1-05.pdf"

Your argument is based on a movie and some website articles. OK. I understand.

No... Its based on an International study CITED by these articles and websites.

Originally Posted by cranks

Again. Please Please pay a little more attention to what people are saying, and stop reading people's mind. Nobody was talking about commercial whaling.

Oh really?

Page 5

Greenpeace only has 5500 members in Japan which is very few considering it has 260 million members worldwide. Many Japanese people, including myself, take a stance "I don't eat whale, but I don't hold with the activists. Who do they think they are to think their moral standard is higher than Japanese's?". It's interesting you assumed it was "liberal" to be anti-whaling because a lot of people are taking it as racism in Japan. You, Ronin, are talking to a scuba diver who has never had whale before, and grew up in an area where whaling is not a tradition or a part of the local culture. I have no reason to support whaling except that anti-whaling activists are often egoistic and their activities are inciting racism on both sides.

Originally Posted by cranks

You are the one who said Japan should obey the INTERNATIONAL community. And you are now supporting Sea Shepherd which is banned from the INTERNATIONAL whaling community, and employing methods that are clearly against the INTERNATIONAL law. Your logic is very expedient. You say one thing, but don't stick to your own logic and start saying something totally irrelevant or something that contradicts with your previous logic. I feel that you are arguing just because you don't wanna lose.

Learn to read idiot. I said specifically

Page 8
I am not defending the activists completely. But I am on their side as I dont want to see legalization of commercial whaling.

You are the one being tripped up by your own argument so dont try and tell me that Im the one trying to "win"

Originally Posted by cranks

Thanks for a very intelligent remark.

You are welcome

Originally Posted by cranks

Well, again, YOU are the one who said the LOGICAL reasoning is that "The fact is that Dolphins are intelligent animals that have self-awareness. This makes killing them cruel". and AGAIN, you started saying "well that's not the only thing" when your logic is refuted. So what is your LOGICAL reasoning after all? And will you keep inventing a new "logical reasoning" every time it is refuted? If so, please let me know now. I'll give up.

Thanks,

Its like saying that there is only one reason for everything. That because babies are less self aware that it is OK to eat them. Babies are not eaten for OTHER REASONS that have nothing to do with being self aware. The main one being that mothers probably wouldnt be too happy with you eating their babies.

Think dammit!