Dolphin Slaughter in Taiji Begins September

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by bleep

... should've been the right path to this argument

There were other arguments I put up against dolphin hunting and whaling though

but yeah.. perhaps you are right.

[bleep]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

There were other arguments I put up against dolphin hunting and whaling though

but yeah.. perhaps you are right.

well if you have some and you are able to justify with sound arguments, then i guess it's gonna be a healthy debate. let the the people judge, which side they're on, or synthesise if they see common grounds.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

chiuchimu, are you for or against whaling and what are your reasons? It's clear you are for Japan making it's own decisions, I'm just interested to what your thoughts are on the matter entirely.

I am for practical conservationism. It has to be realistic. I don't really care about animal rights beyond unnecessary torture and cruelty.

I come from Nagasaki were whaling been a way of life for centuries. for me, number one its a cultural right. Whale meat is delicious.

Saying that, its not Japan's right to take whales out of international waters. I would like to see that stopped if any is going on. Within coastal waters, Japan should do research on the number of whales it can crop and maintain a healthy breeding population. Also, whale breeding/farming industry should be looked into. agreements must be reached with certain countries about the large migratory species.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Any country can choose to make decisions about how it treats it's people or it's environment but they can't do so in some sort of vaccuum immune from international criticism.

We no longer live in a world where things can be hidden all that well from international scrutiny. Japan also needs to realise that the internaitonal community is not going to just accept it's propaganda and political spin like most of it's own people do.

Countries can assert their right to make their own decisions in how they manage their own affairs but they have no right to expect to do so without crtiticism or possibly some sort of sanctions or other consequences for the decisions they make. If countries want to participate in international trade then they must expect to receive international criticism and deal with it in a well reasoned and mature manner. Simply claiming it's our country we can do whatever we want just doesn't cut it these days.

A very truthful statement.

But it's a tit-for-tat game that doesn't end in Japans court.

".. [Japan's] propaganda and political spin..", Not very Machiavellian of you considering the rest of your statement.




It must be noted that the common species of ocean dolphins, like those killed in Japan, are not endangered or even close to becoming endangered species. The types of dolphins that are truly in danger of going extinct are the river/freshwater dolphins around the world( In Brazil, China and India ) It is interesting to note that so much time, money, energy and drama was spent to scream attention to Japanese dolphin slaughter when ZERO attention is given to the river dolphins that ARE disappearing. Just google it for your self.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I just can't believe where you are taking this debate. What is happening in Taiji is not about culture

I want to know the basis for your claim that whaling is not Japanese culture. Many Japanese people are saying it is, and in fact, there are regions that have been doing it for centuries. They had been eating whales before they started eating cows and pigs only 160 years ago. Please give me a good reason why I should listen to you over many Japanese natives, myself included.

Originally Posted by GoNative

it's about good old simple greed. Some local fisherman have worked out a way to help protect their fish stocks by killing off a whole lot predators that eat fish and to make some money off selling the meat. I personally don't have any big problem with this at all. Good on them!

Just because there is money involved, it doesn't mean it is not culture. Kosher meat is not free either.

Originally Posted by GoNative

One thing this is not is some huge cultural issue.

Again, what made you the expert on the issue? What do you know about Japanese culture?

Originally Posted by GoNative

What you don't seem to get cranks is that Japan is intricately part of the international community. Japan, even in it's own country, can't just do anything it wants without criticism. No country can. Countries all over the world come under criticism all the time for things they do in their own countries.

Criticisms are fine. Activities by an organization that is banned from the international organization, and "illegal" operation of the activists are not criticism. The producer of The Cove crossed that line. The racism expresses by some activists can not be "criticism" either.

Originally Posted by GoNative

During the previous government in Australia, a very conservative government, they cracked down massively on asylum seekers arriving in Australia by boat. I personally was appalled at their policies and so were many in the international community. Some Australians claimed other countries had no right to tell us how we should manage our borders. I disagreed, we needed to be told we were doing the wrong thing as good sense seem to have left many of the Australian public after years of quite effective government propaganda. One thing they never claimed though was that the attacks on the policies from other countries were racist!

Well, Killing and eating of whales and denying entry of refugees have nothing in common. Plus, if I remember correctly, Australia is a country of immigration. It is more Australian culture to accept them in the first place. I am not saying Aussies are racist. But at the same time, it is a fact there are many racist remarks and behaviors around anti-whaling. I've already shown you the examples. I said this before but I'll say it again. Yes, Japan has a lot of racism too, but "I" NEVER EVER allow that in a group I am associated with. It seems like a lot of people don't have problem with it as long as they themselves are not doing it.

Originally Posted by GoNative

I'm not saying the Taiji issue is some major international issue for Japan because in reality it's not.

I think it is. It is propagating hatred and racism. And THAT I think is a major issue. For that reason, I was against whaling. Now it seems to me it is clearly anti-whaling side that owes the responsibility for it. That's why now I am anti-anti-whaling.

Originally Posted by GoNative

The thing I see from the somewhat ridiculous arguments you are putting forward though is an incredible defensiveness and intolerance to any criticism from anyone outside of Japan or anyone who is not Japanese.

The thing I see from the somewhat ridiculous argument you are putting forward is an incredible offensiveness and ignorance to Japanese culture. I have repeated again and again and again, that "all life forms are equal" is a "fundamental Japanese cultural value". But you just don't care because you don't understand it. All I am asking is to acknowledge this, and only this, point. I repeated this over and over and over, but I repeat it again. Many Japanese people don't even eat whale. I don't ether. It is the "superiority" that people have problem with. When a majority culture criticize a minority culture, the later WILL be defensive. And It has a reason to be. So I am just asking for more understanding.

Originally Posted by GoNative

And using cultural excuses and the racism card to deflect the criticism away from the actual issue, the slaughter of dolphins, and try and make into something else. If you think there is something so incredibly special about Japanese culture and the Japanese people that make it and them immune from criticism then it is you who seems to have the superiority complex.

You just casually dismissed the racism that clearly exists. I'm actually thinking if I should give up at this point.

Originally Posted by GoNative

Being part of an international community means you will be criticised now and again, for gods sake get used to it and stop being so defensive about it!

Criticisms are OK. But what these people are doing is not criticism. If I look defensive to you, there is a reason for it. You and the activists are being offensive and inconsiderate. Actually, you haven't made many comments yet, so you maybe not. But these activists sure are, and you failed to see that.

Originally Posted by GoNative

And trying to discredit my views because I'm not fluent in the language well look I've lived here almost 7 years. I do speak a reasonable amount of Japanese and I do have lots of very good Japanese and western friends who are completely fluent in speaking, reading and writing in English and Japanese. I don't live in an information vacuum because of my lack of fluency and I don't just get one side of the story. And I certainly didn't just get my information on Taiji from The Cove. I haven't even seen the movie!

Then why can't you understand the very basic idea of 「いただきます」? You hear a lot of 「牛や豚と鯨でなにが違うんだよ」 from Japanese people, and they are not asking for some scientific facts. The question presented there is "cows and pigs and whales should be respected in the same manner because they all have lives. Why do you distinguish one from others?"

[cranks]

Sorry, double post again. Something is wrong.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You are crazy.. your post went all over the place. Debito? Racism? Evolution? (which I belief is a scientific fact).. this has nothing to do with the argument.

Actually, they have, but if you like it concise, I'll make it so. I'm glad you believe in evolution, because quite a lot of people don't...

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Furthermore, the only one bringing up race is you? Let me say it again... there are JAPANESE people that agree with me and WESTERN people that (stupidly) agree with you. This is NOT about Japan against the West. Evidently very few people in Japan eat Whale or Dolphin anyway.

Yes. few people in Japan eat Whale. Dolphin is even more uncommon. I never had either of them. I repeated so many times, that it is not about they actually want to eat them. It is about the basic principal of 「いただきます」, which IS VERY JAPANESE and is something you kept failing to see the idea of. Sure, there are some anti-whaling Japanese too, I was one before. But anti-whaling activists are very unpopular in Japan nonetheless. Greenpeace is actually losing its members. Down to 5500 from 6000. Anti-Whaling Japanese people almost never say things like you do. Have you asked your friends about how they really feel about your view of "Dolphins are self-aware. So We can't eat them. Pigs aren't, so we can"? What was the response?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

As I said before Im only concerned with addressing the points you made concerning my points (X Y and Z) of the whaling argument.

I still cant believe that you are having trouble grasping the logic.

You did not present any logic that withstood my counter arguments. According to your logic, it is totally OK to kill and eat dogs. Is that right?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I have business with Dolphins because to me they are self aware animals JUST LIKE ME AND YOU.

To me, dogs have feelings JUST LIKE ME AND YOU! I understand your feelings. But its always about "TO ME".

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

They have the ability to comprehend their own death. Animals that arent self aware feel "emotions" based on pure instinct. Self aware animals not only feel that but recognise their impending doom. A cow or a pig in a field does not apparently.

Bottlenose dolphins you mean? Then hunting Minkes should be totally OK.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Let me lay it out for you. I believe that killing animals that are self aware is wrong.

I understand this part. And I respect your belief.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

This in itself isnt a logical statement.

No it is not. You just said I believe. It is your belief and that's what I have been pointing out.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

But if you put it in context within human society then it is the only humane conclusion that one could come to.

Why?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

And I dont know why you continue to say that Im wrong about the whales and dolphins.

I never said you were wrong.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Ive given you scientists and links which say Im right. That is good enough for me and the doubts you are casting on such opinion is not very convincing.

I have never said that Bottolenose dolphins don't recognize their optical images in a mirror or mourn about their kins' deaths. I'm just saying that can not be the "logical reason" to be anti-whaling. For a starter, Minke whales and Bottolenose dolphins are as different as giraffes and cows. It is like "giraffes are endangered so we shouldn't eat cows."

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

After all, you gave me a link claiming that is said that "dolphins werent self aware" and when I checked the link it said that a strong argument can be made that they WERE self aware though the tests didnt prove outright.

The paper clearly said there is a possibility, but they could not prove it. I just brought it up as an example of existing "arguments". If they are still arguing on Bolltenose dolphins, Minke Whales sure won't pass "the test". And honestly, I don't really care if they pass a specific test or not. Dogs are self-aware. Ask any dog owner.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

If that is not good enough for you then Im at the point where I think nothing will convince you.

I'm actually not too sure what you are trying to convince me.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I dont think I said anywhere that dogs werent self aware therefore we should eat them... you are putting words in my mouth.

No, you didn't. But according to your logic, dogs are not self-aware. And according to your logic, animals that aren't self-aware can be killed and eaten. What do you think of dogs then?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I can probably give other reasons for why I wouldnt eat dogs. Just like I can give other reasons why I wont eat babies.

Your logic has been changing. First, you said we can't eat anything that is self-aware. Then, confronted with the babies example, you introduced an exception that babies are different and there are other reasons for them, but self-aware animals can not be eaten. Now, confronted with the dogs example, again, you say dogs are different and there are other reasons for not eating dogs. Every time your "logic" is refuted, you introduce a new exception. That is not logic.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

When you say that I advocate eating babies and dogs because I dont feel that self aware animals should be killed, let alone eaten then you are making a huge error in logic.

Please present the error.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You are absolutely right about one thing. I feel that I am morally superior to the people who support whaling and dolphin hunting. I even feel morally superior to those that eat meat as I rarely eat meat except when Im a guest at someones house etc.

eh... think about it. If there is some religious Muslim guy who thinks he is holier than thee, and comes in to your house and preach about what you should and should not do, will you listen to him? Most people will be like "What the? Get the F out of here". This is EXACTLY what's happening regarding whaling and I don't know why you can't see it.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Anyway... I think we've exhausted the directions in which we can go from here concernig whaling and dolphin hunting.

I don't think I have, but yes, what I am talking about, at least the core of it, is not just whaling and dolphin hunting. So either way works for me. Even if I agree to your beliefs, Whaling is OK anyways, because it is only Bottlenose Dolphins that are self-aware by your definition. Minke Whales are OK to be hunted.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by cranks

I can't believe you called me the slant, Columbine!!!

Argh, argh, I've been away for a whole week. Too much to catch up on in just one post, but please, please don't think that by 'the slant' i meant a racist slur on you Cranks!:<

It wasn't meant like that at all; in British vernacular a 'slant' is basically whichever side or angle a topic of conversation is aiming towards. I meant that so far the most concern of the debate had been about understanding Japanese views of Dolphin hunting and whaling, and that for a full debate to be enacted, it would have to come back and explore western views of dolphin hunting and whaling. Even if an argument seems flawed, it's still often representative of the reasons why there is a controversy in the first place and worth exploring.

Of course, now I'm not sure if you knew that already and were joking or not! :/

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Argh, argh, I've been away for a whole week. Too much to catch up on in just one post, but please, please don't think that by 'the slant' i meant a racist slur on you Cranks!:<

It wasn't meant like that at all; in British vernacular a 'slant' is basically whichever side or angle a topic of conversation is aiming towards. I meant that so far the most concern of the debate had been about understanding Japanese views of Dolphin hunting and whaling, and that for a full debate to be enacted, it would have to come back and explore western views of dolphin hunting and whaling. Even if an argument seems flawed, it's still often representative of the reasons why there is a controversy in the first place and worth exploring.

Of course, now I'm not sure if you knew that already and were joking or not! :/

Sure, I was just kidding
I had never heard of the expression though. British people are sometimes very idiomatic, which is good, I learnt a new expression. I guess I pushed the slant even further... but oh well.

[dannavy85]

Anti-Whaling Japanese people almost never say things like you do. Have you asked your friends about how they really feel about your view of "Dolphins are self-aware. So We can't eat them. Pigs aren't, so we can"? What was the response?

I'll say one thing about the idiotic morons of SEA SHEPHERD (lefty Sea Sheep) who live in Seattle Washington. They deserve zero support after being caught on video during the Sendai Tsumani of how right it was for the sea to "kill off a few japs." Those idiots can go to hell along with their cause.

As for the dolphins, if the Japanese could prove that slaughtering them was for the purpose of national subsistance, I might feel more sympathy but I don't see any such purpose with what they're doing.

There comes a time when luxury exceeds humanity, it's time for them to stop this.