Tattoo

[TalnSG]

While I would agree that to penalize foreigners for something that cannot be changed for a visit to their country does not put the Japanese in a good light, and in this case when the person is obviously not native it is insensitive on their part to ban them from otherwise public places.

However, to blatantly disregard the host country's customs and expectations of behavior is even less excusable.

Both are wrong, but when you are a visitor you have chosen to be there and there is a implied agreement to abide by their rules. This applies in any situation short of one that would cause injury.

[Tenchu]

Polar,

I'm not expecting anyone to conform, I'm asking for a little bit of tolerence towards my way of life.

Actually, I don't really understand how tattoos are offensive, anyway? Can someone actually explain why I should even be asking for tolerence here?

This strikes me as something like burning books, or destroying artwork that is not your taste. It's just wrong. There is no way a tattoo can hurt a person, so banning them is as far from democracy as angels can fly.

MMM,

That's not a very good assesment. And what does not speaking Thai have to do with it? I'm learning it, and getting pretty good. It does not change how I feel about some things.

Anyway, I'd challenge you to give some examples of this about me that would hold any water. I only have a few issues about Thailand, and they're pretty solid; nationalism here and unconditional respect for their King is enforced through what constitutes to brainwashing. Adherance to these traditions is coerced in methods similar to those used by the CIA to interogate terrorist suspects into compliance.

Other things, such as my disrespect for criminals and rip off merchants, they're pretty straight forward, but still put me apart from many Thais; such as my objection to prostitution as a solution to poverty.

Don't be forgetting, you know my wife was pregnant, and I'm intending on raising children in this country. She miscarriaged the last mongrel, but she isn't on the pills right now, so I'm expecting something.

Someone telling me I have no right to sift the bullshit out of this country when this'll be the play pen for my young, that's pretty arrogant.

Before the kid's even born, I'm fighting with my wife because of this; I refuse to send any offspring to a Thai school here. Reason being the brainwashing they use to tame people.

As if there's a point to Thai school... my wife's sister is a teacher; she has no idea what Roman numerals are. I'd have to be 10 times smarter than her; I can home school.

Point is, this stuff effects me and my family, and more in the future. There's no way I can throw away everything intelligent I ever learned that our ancestor have spent building through civilization after civilization for thousands of years just because I move to a foreign land. I have the responsibility to put faith in them, and pass this on to my children, and especially adhere to it myself.

TalnSG,

Well, read my other paragraphs in this post first.

I'll just add for you; I don't consider myself as a visitor. Firstly because I'm never going to leave. Secondly, I've not really anywhere I consider to be visiting from. This sounds odd, but I'm an Earthling, not a national.

I say this because my parents are New Zealanders, but I was born and raised in Australia. The law changed when I was young, and New Zealanders born abroad were not automatically entitled to citizenship. I was not Australian either. I was at risk of being a citizen of no country, but ended up a New Zealander (complimentry). Yet I've only ever been to New Zealand for one month of my life, and don't identify with that country.

I don't really identify with Australian culture, either... one bit... but that's for personal reasons. But it isn't like I call that place home.

At the same time, my people are Anglo-Saxons; Europeans.

I can trace my citizenship accross 2 countries, and my ancestory accross 10. Having grown up in a multicultural country and having such a diverse and complex background, I'm not going to listen to someone who tries to tell me to shut up because this isn't my "home"...

[Tenchu]

Also, to put more spin on it, in some countries, getting tattoos is custom and very important. A lot of Africans have those baroque tattoos on their face, as do Maoris. And in Thailand, monks and Muay Thai fighters ger covered in Sak Yant charm tattoos to bring them skill, power or wisdom.

Exluding a Thai monk from an event because he attended a traditional Buddhist temple in the past and got tattoos is little different than just outright putting a sign up like "No Jews" or "No Muslims".

It's time Japan realized it's not the center of the universe.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

This strikes me as something like burning books, or destroying artwork that is not your taste. It's just wrong. There is no way a tattoo can hurt a person, so banning them is as far from democracy as angels can fly.

MMM,

That's not a very good assesment. And what does not speaking Thai have to do with it? I'm learning it, and getting pretty good. It does not change how I feel about some things.

Anyway, I'd challenge you to give some examples of this about me that would hold any water. I only have a few issues about Thailand, and they're pretty solid; nationalism here and unconditional respect for their King is enforced through what constitutes to brainwashing. Adherance to these traditions is coerced in methods similar to those used by the CIA to interogate terrorist suspects into compliance.

Other things, such as my disrespect for criminals and rip off merchants, they're pretty straight forward, but still put me apart from many Thais; such as my objection to prostitution as a solution to poverty.

Someone telling me I have no right to sift the bullshit out of this country when this'll be the play pen for my young, that's pretty arrogant.

Before the kid's even born, I'm fighting with my wife because of this; I refuse to send any offspring to a Thai school here. Reason being the brainwashing they use to tame people.

As if there's a point to Thai school... my wife's sister is a teacher; she has no idea what Roman numerals are. I'd have to be 10 times smarter than her; I can home school.

In Japanese culture your body is considered a gift from your parents. To mark it up is considered an insult to your father and mother. Even piercing was relatively rare until the most recent generations.

Tattoos are associated with the yakuza, where they literally give their bodies to their "new parents" so to speak. The tattoos show an undying dedication to their yakuza boss.

That's tattoo culture in Japan, and I hope that answers your question.

Here's an example:

Originally Posted by Tenchu

On the other hand, Japanese who cannot come to terms with the innocent concept of foreigners getting tattoos are culturally insensitive d***s, and deserve to have it rubbed in.

I'd say just be yourself, wear what you want.

This is exactly the attitude I see in usually non-Japanese speaking foreigners in Japan who get frustrated after a few months or more of living in Japan.

I don't think I am the one being arrogant. But this isn't about you and me.

Japan doesn't see itself as the center of the universe, but it does see itself as the center of Japan, and to come into a foreign country and say "I am doing things my way, like it or not" is the top of the heap of arrogance. New visitors should be quite the opposite: humble...at least until they know their way around.

[Tenchu]

MMM, to be honest, I think this is the first real time you've tried to wind me up. Really, I'm drunk right now (spent the evening with beer, Star Wars and Avatar: The Last Airbender). I'll reply to you later. I think you're very arrogant.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

MMM, to be honest, I think this is the first real time you've tried to wind me up. Really, I'm drunk right now (spent the evening with beer, Star Wars and Avatar: The Last Airbender). I'll reply to you later. I think you're very arrogant.

If I remember correctly, you didn't drink before you moved to Thailand.

And no, I am not trying to wind you up...

[IcewindDude]

I have a question concerning this, not that I have tattoos or plan on getting one... Do Japanese, generally speaking, care about tattoos on someone who is not Japanese? I know they aren't stupid, generally, and should realize that tattoos means different things to different cultures. Most people have never heard of that respect to parents thing (I bet that many Japanese haven't either, I hope I remember to ask this next time I'm in town).
I know this does not represent the majority of Japanese, but the Japanese I talked to and met while in Japan seemed so open to the world and it's cultures and politics that I couldn't imagine them suddenly retreating because of a tattoo.

Originally Posted by TalnSG

Actually there are places in the U.S. where displaying a tattoo is unacceptable and will get you barred from entering. Stupid, but legal. Most of the time its employees of large companies that discover this the hardway.
(about to bare my inked arm while the boss is out! )

In the US? I am not saying you are wrong, but what kind of place in the US would bar you from entering because of a tattoo? People would be all over them for rights infringements. Unless it's private property where ANYTHING the owners don't like can have you legally barred (even racism or sexism or whatever), I don't know where else this could apply.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by IcewindDude

I have a question concerning this, not that I have tattoos or plan on getting one... Do Japanese, generally speaking, care about tattoos on someone who is not Japanese? I know they aren't stupid, generally, and should realize that tattoos means different things to different cultures. Most people have never heard of that respect to parents thing (I bet that many Japanese haven't either, I hope I remember to ask this next time I'm in town).
I know this does not represent the majority of Japanese, but the Japanese I talked to and met while in Japan seemed so open to the world and it's cultures and politics that I couldn't imagine them suddenly retreating because of a tattoo.

Yes and no...if I were meeting my Japanese girlfriend's parents I would do what I could to make sure they didn't see my tattoos (if I had any).

On the other hand, the Japanese culture is generally one of acceptance as long it isn't hurting me personally, which is why homosexuality, for example, isn't considered a "problem in society".

If you were to ask a Japanese person why they don't want to get a tattoo, I doubt they would say "because I respect my parents". It's more of subtle, ingrained thing. The Japanese people I have talked to usually don't want one because it "looks dirty". I also know some Japanese rock and rollers that have tattoos, so obviously that isn't universal.

And the answer would be "yes" if you were trying to get into a onsen where tattoos are not allowed. The reason tattoos are not allowed is because it keeps the yakuza out, and you can't say "No yakuza" but you can say "no tattoos." So if an onsen lets a foreigner in who has tattoos and the yakuza hears about it, there will be hell to pay.

Originally Posted by IcewindDude

In the US? I am not saying you are wrong, but what kind of place in the US would bar you from entering because of a tattoo? People would be all over them for rights infringements. Unless it's private property where ANYTHING the owners don't like can have you legally barred (even racism or sexism or whatever), I don't know where else this could apply.

I know Costco does not allow employees with pierces anywhere besides the ears work there. They were sued over it and won.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by IcewindDude

In the US? I am not saying you are wrong, but what kind of place in the US would bar you from entering because of a tattoo? People would be all over them for rights infringements. Unless it's private property where ANYTHING the owners don't like can have you legally barred (even racism or sexism or whatever), I don't know where else this could apply.

You will find that corporate America is not open to diversity as we would like to think. Management is largely still run by those who grew up in an era when only "drunken sailors" and criminals had tattoos. It isn't right, but because it goes to the issue of public image and many companies have spent obscene amounts of money to find ways to publicly prohibit anything in someone's appearance they don't like. Unless it is religiously protected (and there si a list of recognized religions and enforceable practices - you can't just make it up), they can do as they wish. The only requirement is that they have to enforce it on everyone.

In my instance, the university system passed a dress code requiring sleeves. No sleeveless shirts or blouses means no one should ever see my tattoo while I am on campus ---- at least not in my official capacity. My supervisor tried to force me to cover it before this dress code was passed and my refusal was regarded as "bad attitude" on my annual review. But once the dress code was published I had no recourse.

And after working in government, and in public and private industries of all sorts for more than 30 years, I can confirm that it is quite common.

[IcewindDude]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

You will find that corporate America is not open to diversity as we would like to think. Management is largely still run by those who grew up in an era when only "drunken sailors" and criminals had tattoos. It isn't right, but because it goes to the issue of public image and many companies have spent obscene amounts of money to find ways to publicly prohibit anything in someone's appearance they don't like. Unless it is religiously protected (and there si a list of recognized religions and enforceable practices - you can't just make it up), they can do as they wish. The only requirement is that they have to enforce it on everyone.

In my instance, the university system passed a dress code requiring sleeves. No sleeveless shirts or blouses means no one should ever see my tattoo while I am on campus ---- at least not in my official capacity. My supervisor tried to force me to cover it before this dress code was passed and my refusal was regarded as "bad attitude" on my annual review. But once the dress code was published I had no recourse.

And after working in government, and in public and private industries of all sorts for more than 30 years, I can confirm that it is quite common.

Sometimes I feel like I live in either a sheltered life or am just lucky not to experience certain things, despite the fact I've been all over the US and the world. It may very well help that I am pretty modest in just about everything I do.

I worked as an intern for NASA in Mississippi (rocket engine testing), and over there I noticed a programmer who had tattoos completely down one of his arms and two on the side of his shaven head. Obviously, no one had a problem with him working there as he was skilled and did his job. Maybe it's because it was a government job that no such restrictions are in in place. Dunno...

And your university is strict! Although, I find it understandable since it may distract others in a learning environment to have someone guy's hairy armpits or girl's cleavage out in open sight. We have the usual "no hats in a classroom" and a general "be properly dressed". Apparently, pajamas are considered "proper" for some. They don't have regulations about specific things like sleeves at my university... yet.