Tattoo

[redline]

Originally Posted by IcewindDude

In the US? I am not saying you are wrong, but what kind of place in the US would bar you from entering because of a tattoo? People would be all over them for rights infringements. Unless it's private property where ANYTHING the owners don't like can have you legally barred (even racism or sexism or whatever), I don't know where else this could apply.

Well, actually, I have been refused jobs before because of my tattoos. Mostly when it involves the public or customer relations. My friend works at a movie theater and they don't just stop at barring tattoos. You have to wear you hair a certain way, a certain color, and a certain length. You have to wear dress shoes, of a certain type, and only black. Women may have ponytails, but must be tucked into their hat that they must wear at all times. So I consider myself lucky that I found a job in which they allow me to wear pretty much whatever I want.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by MMM

In Japanese culture your body is considered a gift from your parents. To mark it up is considered an insult to your father and mother. Even piercing was relatively rare until the most recent generations.

Tattoos are associated with the yakuza, where they literally give their bodies to their "new parents" so to speak. The tattoos show an undying dedication to their yakuza boss.

Yes, but this isn't so in foreign culture. Why should foreigners be subject to this standard?

Originally Posted by MMM

Here's an example:


This is exactly the attitude I see in usually non-Japanese speaking foreigners in Japan who get frustrated after a few months or more of living in Japan.

I don't think I am the one being arrogant. But this isn't about you and me.

Japan doesn't see itself as the center of the universe, but it does see itself as the center of Japan, and to come into a foreign country and say "I am doing things my way, like it or not" is the top of the heap of arrogance. New visitors should be quite the opposite: humble...at least until they know their way around.

MMM, I'm not going to conform to a foreign culture that tries to tell me I'm a gansta who disrespected my parents because I got a tattoo. I'll simply tell them that the world might be a little bigger than they once thought, and I'll welcome them into it.

Yes, I'm familiar with your type here in Thailand, also.

Actually, in my experience, most of the tourists who just arrive are your type, and when they stay a bit longer some stay the same, but a lot change into what I am.

It's impossible, you see, for someone to become as pissed off as I am until they get a decent understanding of it. Most the things I'm pissed off at, I wasn't aware of them until I'd been here over a year.

In Thailand, we call people like you "Asiaphiles", "**** heads", or "**** suckers". I'm not saying I call you that, but just giving you an idea.

Most people who get down on their knees and take it, in Thailand, are the ones who're always trying to defend the Thais. It's like they think they're perfect, or something, and just can't bear to have anyone insult their precious Thais.

Of course, people like this piss me off, because they usually end up defending plain double standards. Things I've told you before, where white men have to pay more simply because they're white. This is so common in Muay Thai training.

There is no cure for people like you, as you're not sick. The problem is physically embedded in your brain, and can only be smoothed out with hard blows with a baseball bat.

See, all I ever wanted was to be treated the same as Thais, but people call me the racist one... because I want equality?

Well, I found a non racist Muay Thai gym and have some real great Thai friends now. I don't get ripped off anymore. You can find good people in this horde of Thai scammers, you just have to look for them.

In the case of Japan, if I were to go there with my tattoos, I'd be politely asking them to respect my culture and show just a little social acceptence. If you've got a problem with that, then keep calling me a racist idiot like eveyone else does. But I rest assured that social acceptance and equality are things worth persisting for.

Also, I started drinking long before I hated racism in Thailand. I started in Germany when my life fell apart and I lost my job.

[Tenchu]

Anyway, MMM, I think how the cultural respect thing is supposed to go is, when someone does something based on their culture, you tolerate and accept it/them.

For example, if you've a Muslim friend fishing with you at sunset and he wanders off for a minute and starts praying, you don't laugh at him and call him a dick, you give him space and respect.

Then when you pull your beers out while fishing, he's not allowed to start preaching to you about not drinking, either, because he has to respect you and your culture.

Or if you have a Christian friend, and you want them to come fishing on Sunday morn, but they say they're going to church; don't get pissed off at them, just ask them if they'll come in the evening or something instead.

What is not cultural respect would be, when your Muslim friend goes to pray in the evening, he doesn't try to make you come with him. He respects that you're not Muslim.

Or you don't try and force you Muslim friend to drink beer with you, because you have to understand his ways.

Or your Christian friend doesn't start shoving your mail box full of salvation pamphlets and what not, because he knows you're not Christian.

That is respect. It's about living together in harmony; not pushing your ways on others.

Of course, some things should be done as a courtesy; take your shoes off when entering a Thai persons house because they don't want a dirty floor. Perhaps when a Thai person gives you a wai (placing the hands together in front of the face to say hello) you should return it. Or, when a westerner offers to shake hands, don't refuse.

It's okay to do things as courtesy, but there's a limit, and there's a difference between respect and being trodden on.

It basically ends when they try to dictate your dress code, say you can't enter because of your skin color, or because you have tattoos. Saying certain religions are unwelcome. Forcing people to do things your way going over the top with it; asking someone to take their shoes off because you want your floor clean is way different than telling a Maori to get out because he's covered in tattoos.

It's funny how all you asiaphiles have made so many rules in your own countries to make sure everyone has the most equal rights and there's no form of social exclusion whatsoever, but when you go to Asia, and the favor is not returned, you just pay it off and say it's a different country and you have to respect that...

[JackIsLost]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Yes, but this isn't so in foreign culture. Why should foreigners be subject to this standard?

it is a standard for everyone. why would a standard be able to be broken just because you're from some other land?

Originally Posted by Tenchu

In Thailand, we call people like you "Asiaphiles", "**** heads", or "**** suckers". I'm not saying I call you that, but just giving you an idea.

I call people like you "a moron", I'm not saying I call you that, but just giving you an idea.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by JackIsLost

it is a standard for everyone. why would a standard be able to be broken just because you're from some other land?

So if the standard in a Western country is no Muslims head scarfs allowed in public schools, or no wearing Che Guevara T-shirts in public places, negros not allowed on golf courses, internet sites pulled down for advertising human rights, so on, this is all okay, right?

My tattoos demonstrate my religous belief; I can post pics of them to prove it if you want. It represents everything I've worked for and my pride about who I am and what I do... and I'm supposed to tolerate someone who tells me it means I'm a disrespectful criminal?

Like I said; asiaphile.

[IcewindDude]

Hard to find someone to agree with on this situation, since the relevance to each argument is situational. There are going to uptight people who are rigid about their customs and there will be more open and understanding people.

One big issue that I see conflicting here is the mixture of high and low context societies. Two great examples of a high and low context culture is, of course, Japan and the US. Japan has cultural bits up the wazoo. America has hardly any beyond basics or it has small sub-cultures that have to accepting to the other cultures around them. Therefore, it sort of makes sense that the enforcement of culture is a one-way issue.

However, I found that while I was in Japan that people there were pretty tolerant of my ignorance of certain things. There were many times that I spoke my mind (honestly) and while I did realize this wasn't something I should do too strongly in Japan, I was actually complemented for doing so! I never got used to the bowing thing, I usually got away with just a nod (most of them usually only do a sort of nod anyways). And I am sure there were things I got away with that I didn't even realize. But I did try to fit in for the most part (I was there for the culture after all). I am sure they had just a hard time grasping what it meant to be someone from a low context culture, where we communicate everything straight-forward and set up an environment where people can't make as many mistakes (whereas Japanese have an environment where you are expected to do certain things).

Another example is when I had a Japanese teacher who taught math at my university (judging from her thick accent, came from Japan herself), she would not give out her first name in her introduction as any other professor would do. She insisted that her first name was a private thing and that she's only comfortable with people close to her knowing (although it was easy to just look it up ). We thought she was weird for this (although she was strange in other ways too), but we did not tell her all that "when in Rome" crap.

Tolerance comes from knowing how your culture is compared to other's. If people can't help it or just don't feel right, conflicting with a culture, either tolerate it or come to a compromise. There's so much gray to the issue that it's hard to make it black and white.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Yes, but this isn't so in foreign culture. Why should foreigners be subject to this standard?

MMM, I'm not going to conform to a foreign culture that tries to tell me I'm a gansta who disrespected my parents because I got a tattoo. I'll simply tell them that the world might be a little bigger than they once thought, and I'll welcome them into it.

Yes, I'm familiar with your type here in Thailand, also.

Actually, in my experience, most of the tourists who just arrive are your type, and when they stay a bit longer some stay the same, but a lot change into what I am.

It's impossible, you see, for someone to become as pissed off as I am until they get a decent understanding of it. Most the things I'm pissed off at, I wasn't aware of them until I'd been here over a year.

In Thailand, we call people like you "Asiaphiles", "**** heads", or "**** suckers". I'm not saying I call you that, but just giving you an idea.

Most people who get down on their knees and take it, in Thailand, are the ones who're always trying to defend the Thais. It's like they think they're perfect, or something, and just can't bear to have anyone insult their precious Thais.

Of course, people like this piss me off, because they usually end up defending plain double standards. Things I've told you before, where white men have to pay more simply because they're white. This is so common in Muay Thai training.

There is no cure for people like you, as you're not sick. The problem is physically embedded in your brain, and can only be smoothed out with hard blows with a baseball bat.

See, all I ever wanted was to be treated the same as Thais, but people call me the racist one... because I want equality?

Well, I found a non racist Muay Thai gym and have some real great Thai friends now. I don't get ripped off anymore. You can find good people in this horde of Thai scammers, you just have to look for them.

In the case of Japan, if I were to go there with my tattoos, I'd be politely asking them to respect my culture and show just a little social acceptence. If you've got a problem with that, then keep calling me a racist idiot like eveyone else does. But I rest assured that social acceptance and equality are things worth persisting for.

Also, I started drinking long before I hated racism in Thailand. I started in Germany when my life fell apart and I lost my job.

Tenchu, I didn't say a single word about life in Thailand. You called the Japanese bad words because you didn't like how the Japanese culture views tattoos. I would never defend a double-standard like different prices for different races in Japan or anywhere in the world.

I very much do not appreciate the analogy of me being beaten in the head with a baseball bat. I will not put up with those kinds of analogies in the future.

You may ask politely to be treated with respect despite your tattoos, but you are still not getting into most Japanese onsens. It is not because you are white, but because you are inked. Your choice is to accept it or go to a place that accepts tattoos, but that is a door you closed on yourself when you decided to get inked.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Anyway, MMM, I think how the cultural respect thing is supposed to go is, when someone does something based on their culture, you tolerate and accept it/them.

For example, if you've a Muslim friend fishing with you at sunset and he wanders off for a minute and starts praying, you don't laugh at him and call him a dick, you give him space and respect.

Then when you pull your beers out while fishing, he's not allowed to start preaching to you about not drinking, either, because he has to respect you and your culture.

Or if you have a Christian friend, and you want them to come fishing on Sunday morn, but they say they're going to church; don't get pissed off at them, just ask them if they'll come in the evening or something instead.

What is not cultural respect would be, when your Muslim friend goes to pray in the evening, he doesn't try to make you come with him. He respects that you're not Muslim.

Or you don't try and force you Muslim friend to drink beer with you, because you have to understand his ways.

Or your Christian friend doesn't start shoving your mail box full of salvation pamphlets and what not, because he knows you're not Christian.

That is respect. It's about living together in harmony; not pushing your ways on others.

Of course, some things should be done as a courtesy; take your shoes off when entering a Thai persons house because they don't want a dirty floor. Perhaps when a Thai person gives you a wai (placing the hands together in front of the face to say hello) you should return it. Or, when a westerner offers to shake hands, don't refuse.

It's okay to do things as courtesy, but there's a limit, and there's a difference between respect and being trodden on.

It basically ends when they try to dictate your dress code, say you can't enter because of your skin color, or because you have tattoos. Saying certain religions are unwelcome. Forcing people to do things your way going over the top with it; asking someone to take their shoes off because you want your floor clean is way different than telling a Maori to get out because he's covered in tattoos.

It's funny how all you asiaphiles have made so many rules in your own countries to make sure everyone has the most equal rights and there's no form of social exclusion whatsoever, but when you go to Asia, and the favor is not returned, you just pay it off and say it's a different country and you have to respect that...

Tenchu, don't make this into anything it is not. You are angry people with tattoos aren't allowed in Japanese onsens. I explained why. That is it. Do not bring up "you Asiaphiles" and double-standards and veiled insults. Again, it isn't about you and me.

[JackIsLost]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

So if the standard in a Western country is no Muslims head scarfs allowed in public schools, or no wearing Che Guevara T-shirts in public places, negros not allowed on golf courses, internet sites pulled down for advertising human rights, so on, this is all okay, right?

My tattoos demonstrate my religous belief; I can post pics of them to prove it if you want. It represents everything I've worked for and my pride about who I am and what I do... and I'm supposed to tolerate someone who tells me it means I'm a disrespectful criminal?

Like I said; asiaphile.

your examples are just plain outrageous. lets say "no pissing in public" is a standard, should you be able to piss on our streets because you're German? standards are set for everybody, not against a certain person. live with it.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by MMM

Tenchu, I didn't say a single word about life in Thailand.

Yes you did. You compaired my life in Thailand to similarities you'd seen displayed by "arrogant" foreigners in Japan.

Given this arguement is basically about Westerners bowing to foreign culture, I think my examples are relevant.

I'd really be surprised if you were against the double pricing. Perhaps you would be, or perhaps you'd have to see it yourself to convert to asiaphile status on this one.

The main thing is, Thais are on average poorer than Westerners who come to Thailand. So they say it is based on income. But it isn't; wealthy Thais still pay less for these things than poor Westerners. And poor Westerners, like myself right now, who're living on only about $7 US per day, similar to most Thais, are still expected to pay more. But this fact is overlooked always, and the simpleton comeback "All Westerners are rich" is reapplied...

Originally Posted by MMM

I very much do not appreciate the analogy of me being beaten in the head with a baseball bat. I will not put up with those kinds of analogies in the future.

That was a joke I found hysterically funny; it isn't my fault if you didn't think so. Don't shoot the comedian.

Originally Posted by MMM

You may ask politely to be treated with respect despite your tattoos, but you are still not getting into most Japanese onsens. It is not because you are white, but because you are inked. Your choice is to accept it or go to a place that accepts tattoos, but that is a door you closed on yourself when you decided to get inked.

Euah... I just don't think you get it.

How does this statement sound: "I recommend negros and people with tattoos stay clear of Japan, as they're intolerant"???

It doesn't sound good, but it's true, and it seems you don't have a problem with that. The reason I say asiaphile is because I know if I used this statement to describe America, you'd be outraged. Yet you've formed a double standard for Japan.

In my case, I've never really decided to get "inked". I chose to express my religous views through tattoos. I can think of three other cultures who do this; Maori, Thai Buddhist/Muay Thai, and some African thing I dunno what it's called. The simple fact is, Japanese do not tolerate these cultures. Yes, I've an issue with that.

Even those who get meaningless tattoos just for self expression; their self expression and free speech is clearly not tolerated in Japan and gets trampled on.