Veni, Vidi, What the hell was that?

[Columbine]

Personally I always find capitol cities to be completely different from the rest of the country too; despite being by nature 'representative' of that country, they don't actually show much typicality as everything's at one end of an extreme. I loved Japan, disliked Tokyo. Loved Thailand, loathed Bangkok. Adore England, but you're really going to have to work hard to convince me I'll ever want to live in London.

my conclusion; capitol cities are always a bit skank.

[Crownedinterror]

The strange love/hate feeling started the first week. But it became much more stronger the last two weeks. Maybe because I was traveling a lot during the three first weeks.

Before I came to Japan, I knew that people would be behind this social mask, I knew they would be polite and respectful, I knew there would be a load of people, etc.

But living it. It's so different.

I like Tokyo, I like big cities. But I guess that it's the Japanese who made me hate Japan (as strange as it can be). And that's kind of racism I guess.

I just didn't like the "You are a stranger, so I have to be kind to you, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry" thing. They "hide" their emotions but anybody a little intelligent can see through it. That was insulting. And when someone would seem more friendly, I would never know if it was true or if he was just playing nice.

And I felt very excluded. It's hard to explain. Body language, intonation, looks, I don't know exactly what, I just felt it.

Now I don't know what to do. I had a life challenge of going to Japan and live there. Work as a game programmer or even designer. But now, I realize that the cultural barrier will be harder to break.

Is making friends in Japan that hard, or is it just me?

[Crownedinterror]

Originally Posted by edelweiss

I really enjoy the stark contrasts between the good and the bad of big cities. I don't think I would feel so strongly the good I do enjoy from them if they were without their dark complex underbelly. Much like real people I truly like, I enjoy complexity, I appreciate a bit of grit. I also enjoy feeling like one small fish caught up in the waves.

That's how I felt before going to Japan. I was very interested in Japanese social problems.

But now it's not about good or bad, it's about a cultural differences that make social interactions difficult.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by Crownedinterror

Tokyo is the most depressing city I've ever been to. People are either overworking and spending all their money in shopping centers or pachinko. Or they have stupid part-time jobs and aspiring to be like the other ones.

False. You never even mingled with the locals. How the hell do you know how they live?

But what I'm sure of is that there is something not very sane about the Japanese people, something I didn't appreciate at all.

So, we're a nation of 130 million lunatics? Nice comment.

And the dark side of Japan is even darken than you can imagine.

I wish I could live a life as simple as yours, then. Where are you from, Heaven? And why the heck did you stay the whole five weeks as planned?

I'm not even sure of what I'm saying. Things seem so unclear. But I have this feeling that could be translated by the sentence : "What the hell was that country full of crazy people".

Thanks for reminding me of how crazy we are.
__________

But I guess that it's the Japanese who made me hate Japan (as strange as it can be). And that's kind of racismI guess.

lol You knew what the source of the problems was from the start! Should have mentioned it in your first post.

I'll stop here as talking to a racist is a waste of time.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Crownedinterror

I just didn't like the "You are a stranger, so I have to be kind to you, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry" thing. They "hide" their emotions but anybody a little intelligent can see through it. That was insulting. And when someone would seem more friendly, I would never know if it was true or if he was just playing nice.

And I felt very excluded. It's hard to explain. Body language, intonation, looks, I don't know exactly what, I just felt it.

I think that you`re both looking at cultural differences... And ignoring some of them at the same time. A lot of the social cues you picked up leading to the "just felt it" do not always carry the same meaning in Japanese culture as others. You`re picking up that difference, but interpreting the difference according to your own social background and culture.

That just doesn`t work.

The "hiding" emotions... Chances are, there wasn`t much emotion to hide. You`re reading hints that would work in your own culture. Even things at that level are different in Japanese culture - but it`s all subtle. People just don`t react to other people in the same way. The signs of friendliness and unfriendliness are just not the same as the culture you`re used to. A lot of the uneasiness you likely picked up on had nothing to do with you - but personal doubt in English ability. This is why the world sort of changes once you`re fluent in Japanese. That wall disappears - and it is the largest, even with people who seem fluent in English.

[Crownedinterror]

@Sashimister : I'm not saying I hold the infinite truth and wisdom, I'm telling you guys what I felt. Which is far away from reality. When I say "Japanese are crazy", that's from my point of view. And I'm not saying all Japanese are the same, I would like to believe that everybody is human and therefore, the same. But the really, because of several cultural aspects, it's hard to measure

And about the language difficulties... I speak Japanese. And about me wrongly perceiving Japanese cues. I don't know. I would say you are right, but I'm not a 100% sure.

For example, my friend had a meeting with a Japanese he met back in US. They both agreed to meet up somewhere at Shinjuku station. He waited but she didn't come. And then she said she lost her phone... I mean, yeah maybe she lost her phone. But the chances are that she didn't want to come, but didn't want to say it. So she made him wait instead. It wasn't even a date. She could have said like "Oh it might be a bit hard to do it" or something like that. Then we could have guessed she couldn't come.

Ok maybe it's a bad example because it's a guy and a girl. But then we met her and she had this extremely phony intonation in English when she was talking to us (even while laughing) but would speak "normally" with her Japanese friend.

Not all Japanese I met were fake though. I met this very friendly old man who helped me find my way in Asakusa. I walked with him since he was going to the same direction (not only because he was being nice). We talked and I didn't feel a second he was being fake. And another strange women I met on the train to Nikko was very expressive. She told me things she thought about Japanese girl being shy in bars and how men she would go out with would be too shy to kiss in public, walk hand in hand. I guess some of them are more true to strangers because they feel it's easier with them. (She even asked me if I was gay. It was pretty direct.)

Isn't it true that Japanese have communication problems with each other?

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Crownedinterror

And about the language difficulties... I speak Japanese. And about me wrongly perceiving Japanese cues. I don't know. I would say you are right, but I'm not a 100% sure.

I am sorry, but if this was your first time spending some time in Japan... I question your ability to speak Japanese. Studying outside of Japan, and actually learning it while immersed in the culture are completely different things. If you are making a fair number of mistakes, the other people may feel pressured to adjust their speech for your comprehension (INCREDIBLY tiring and stressful, no matter how friendly you feel toward the other person) or feel they should be trying harder to communicate with you in English.

Ok maybe it's a bad example because it's a guy and a girl. But then we met her and she had this extremely phony intonation in English when she was talking to us (even while laughing) but would speak "normally" with her Japanese friend.

That "phony intonation" is pretty normal. It`s not "phony", and I have no idea why it exists, but a LOT of people feel they should have a different "voice" in English.

She told me things she thought about Japanese girl being shy in bars and how men she would go out with would be too shy to kiss in public, walk hand in hand. I guess some of them are more true to strangers because they feel it's easier with them. (She even asked me if I was gay. It was pretty direct.)[/quote]

This one strikes me as more off putting than the rest of what you`ve mentioned. She was using you as a fantasy support - I`m guessing she was the type with a weird complex about how all foreign men are romantic and perfect, (usually from watching western movies...), and "showing off" by telling you how poorly she thinks of Japanese men and how highly she thinks of foreign men. It`s not being open - it`s trying to impress you, and pretty childish. Like the teens who run around saying they absolutely hate their home countries, home towns, etc... And saying they want to run off to Japan because it`s perfect there. Telling a Japanese person this isn`t being open - it`s trying to impress them but being immature about the whole thing.

[Crownedinterror]

False. You never even mingled with the locals. How the hell do you know how they live?

What I say is based on what I saw (weekdays, weekends, 1AM, 5AM, Lunch time, name it). Why are there so many shopping centers and pachinko?

I wish I could live a life as simple as yours, then. Where are you from, Heaven? And why the heck did you stay the whole five weeks as planned?

You don't need to insult me, but if you felt insulted by my posts you can use arguments to prove me I'm wrong and that all of what I felt is pure delusion. And I stayed there 5 weeks because I like Japan too. I'm already starting to miss the little beeps when you cross streets.

lol You knew what the source of the problems was from the start! Should have mentioned it in your first post.

I'll stop here as talking to a racist is a waste of time.

Well human brain is basically racist. Racism has the same process that makes you say "this chair is a chair". Because it's much more easier for the brain to regroup different objects with similar characteristics. Now, I found similarities between some Japanese and I'm applying those to all of them. That's why I call myself a "racist" but it doesn't mean I'm hateful.

And now please lets not turn this thread into hate. I just want to share my experience back there. And I'm not the only one to have experienced the same. In fact, many of the backpackers I met agreed with me on certain things. Backpackers from France, New Caledonia, Australia, New Zealand, Burma, Los Angeles and Canada.

[Crownedinterror]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I question your ability to speak Japanese. Studying outside of Japan, and actually learning it while immersed in the culture are completely different things. If you are making a fair number of mistakes, the other people may feel pressured to adjust their speech for your comprehension (INCREDIBLY tiring and stressful, no matter how friendly you feel toward the other person) or feel they should be trying harder to communicate with you in English.

I understand what you are saying and it's probably true. But even if my vocabulary is still poor in Japanese but I can speak. I know enough Japanese to live in Japan right now. I have been studying Japanese for 3 years now. And when I didn't understand one particular word they would use their cellphone to search for the English equivalent.

That "phony intonation" is pretty normal. It`s not "phony", and I have no idea why it exists, but a LOT of people feel they should have a different "voice" in English.

But while laughing? You don't laugh in English? And she studied in US. I don't think she wasn't confident about her English skill level.

This one strikes me as more off putting than the rest of what you`ve mentioned. She was using you as a fantasy support - I`m guessing she was the type with a weird complex about how all foreign men are romantic and perfect, (usually from watching western movies...), and "showing off" by telling you how poorly she thinks of Japanese men and how highly she thinks of foreign men. It`s not being open - it`s trying to impress you, and pretty childish. Like the teens who run around saying they absolutely hate their home countries, home towns, etc... And saying they want to run off to Japan because it`s perfect there. Telling a Japanese person this isn`t being open - it`s trying to impress them but being immature about the whole thing.

Very interesting, since she was probably 25 years older than me. Maybe more. Well yeah, she was flirting. But at the same time we would have interesting discussions too. The "shy thing" was just to show how Japanese can criticize Japanese. And I'm not the western-type guy, I live in Canada but I was born in Nicaragua. People fail at guessing where I'm from usually.

[Crownedinterror]

Alright so, as ironic as it can be I just received a PM saying "F*cking Hater, stay home".

I guess it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation on Internet with people reading a tenth of what you say, so I will make everyone happy.

--------------------------------------

Japan is the best place to live in the world

Japanese people are very kind and they will do whatever it takes to help you if you need it. Japan has a great culture and history. It is also avant-gardist in many fields such as robotics, electronics, fashion etc.

Long live Japan!

--------------------------------------