Geisha --- is it art?

[theAlphaDuck]

oh christ....

im not saying people are FORCED into being a geshia...

but if you are a geshia...do you have the FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION on would assosiate with tradtional artists...

can she decide
"today..im going to sing : like a virgin, by kylie minogue?"

NO.

so you would say that the FIRST thing a geshia should do is be an artist?

and THEN entertain men...

that entertaining men is only secondry to what she is doing??

NO..
it is her raison detre...her reason for being...is entertaining men....that is her PRIMARY function....the fact that she uses singing and dancing is only secondry to that....

can you REALLY not see that?!

[godwine]

Originally Posted by theAlphaDuck

oh christ....

im not saying people are FORCED into being a geshia...

but if you are a geshia...do you have the FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION on would assosiate with tradtional artists...

can she decide
"today..im going to sing : like a virgin, by kylie minogue?"

NO.

so you would say that the FIRST thing a geshia should do is be an artist?

and THEN entertain men...

that entertaining men is only secondry to what she is doing??

NO..
it is her raison detre...her reason for being...is entertaining men....that is her PRIMARY function....the fact that she uses singing and dancing is only secondry to that....

can you REALLY not see that?!

FYI, I never disagree their job function is to entertain man. But that doesn't change them from being an artist.

Actors and Actress are also there to "perform to entertain" people. Are you saying they are not artist?

Why do movie star have to read out from the script? Why do stage actress have to act a certain way, walk a certain direction and move in a certain manner?

They don't sing like a virgin because, well, people pay them to perform an art that is within their own realm. I am sure, other artist mentioned above area also not allowed to sing "Like a virgin" while in their own act, unless requested to

As a martial artist (NOTE ARTIST ARTIST), why can't i just punch and kick whatever way I want when I feel like it? Why are our katas fixed? Because, if you do that you actually REMOVED the art content of the practice.

You can't generalize and say that art=freedom, many arts have given rule. Even a drawing, if you want to be an impressionism artist, there are specific ways you draw, you are free to express whatever topics you want, but you have to draw within guidelines to make your work fit the "impressionism" category

Photographer, if I am entering a contest for taking pictures of people, i have to take pictures of people, i can do it whichever way i want, but the topic has to be people

You see my point? The TOPIC for the geisha is to perfom in accordance to the traditional music and dance, which is a form of art

[theAlphaDuck]

im not saying singing and dancing is not art...

however with all of the art forms you have mentioned....

once you attain a certain level....you HAVE the freedom of expression.

even a movie actor of a certain level can divert off the script...

also i think if you agree that thier primary function is to entertain men...then we are in agreement...on the whole...

this thread was spawned from the fact that

...dirty old Japanese men...and some pervy canadian guy...said the only reason he hired geshia was "to support the arts"

i think thats bull

[godwine]

Originally Posted by theAlphaDuck

im not saying singing and dancing is not art...

however with all of the art forms you have mentioned....

once you attain a certain level....you HAVE the freedom of expression.

even a movie actor of a certain level can divert off the script...

also i think if you agree that thier primary function is to entertain men...then we are in agreement...on the whole...

this thread was spawned from the fact that

...dirty old Japanese men...and some pervy canadian guy...said the only reason he hired geshia was "to support the arts"

i think thats bull

But the geisha also can do that too when they attain a certain level, once they've been doing it long enough, they are free to train their maiko in their own ways, they are free to select or even compose their own music or dance, of course it has to be within specific guidelines, the same goes for martial art, or anything else.... using photography again, a portrait is a portrait, you can't be "creative" and say "Today, I want to take a portrait, and this pen on my desk is my subject"

That I don't disagree, their work is to entertain (doesn't change the fact that they are artist), but how their employer consider them as, thats a totally different story. I don't know if the "Dirty old Japanese men" and a "Pervy Canadian Guy" really hired them for art or not, thats for us to judge and for them to know, but we cannot just say someone is BSing us because we ourselves felt that "Yup these people are only hiring a geisha out of a perverted reason"

Wait, just to clarify, you know that Geishas are not prostitute right?

[theAlphaDuck]

hmmm yes

please correct me if i am wrong...

but when training her own maiko....has geshia not no become "mother"?

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by theAlphaDuck

but geisha is ULTIMATLY about ENTERTAINING MEN...

if you want to see a REALLY good singer....its not going to be a geisha

if you want to see a REALLY good muscian....its not going to be a geshia

if you want to see a REALLY good dancer.....its not going to be a geshia

BUT...if you want to experience a bit of culture...and want to drink with some pretty girls who are all dolled up and laugh at all your jokes....and you dont want to go to a hostess bar because that seems a little bit too common for you....

THEN your gonna see a geshia.


as for entertaining people is it an art....

NO...its called social skills

Have you really spent the $10,000 dollars it takes to throw a geisha party? If not, then you are talking nonsence or you didn't really experience a geisha. Those actresses in movies are not really geisha.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

They are a high class prositute that had a specific role in fuedal Japans elite classes. Of course it is a form of art, presentation and dancing, singing and propriety. But the actual essence of a prostitute has to be taken with a bucket of sugar, if you ask me.

Tenchu, I don't think thats accurate. The "Entertainment" doesn't include exchanging sex for money. If you are basing this off of the movie, then I can tell you that it is not accurate. They are not high class prostitute, some may choose to involve sex, but the tradition is that they don't, and the geisha houses forbid them from doing so.

Alphaduck, I don't know enough to comment on that. However, I am aware of one geisha who brought her maiko to perform for us, she later on indicate that she herself has another performance to do elsewhere, so she i not a "mother" yet, more like a sister role, but the maiko was trained under a manner of how this "sister" see this "art"

[Tsuruko]

I run a forum on Geisha, perhaps you might want to ask your question there. :oints to signature::

I truly believe Geisha are artists, else I wouldn't be interested. When it comes to dance, each Geisha has her own way of expressing herself, maybe it's only in the way she holds her lips, or the way she opens and closes her eyes. It's fine detail, and that's what makes Geisha so interesting. You have to look for the fine detail. It's what's being conisseur is about, whether it be wine, or kimono and Geisha for me.

[Aniki]

You've got a nice forum there Tsuruko. I see it was created not so long ago

[Tsuruko]

Thank you!

Yes, it's not too old, but I think it does fairly well considering it's only been open for a handful of months.