Why do many japanese want to have white skin?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Because that's a basic quality of internalized racism that plagues the world.

Dark skin is beautiful.

There are a lot of assumptions going on with this entire thread that I think that are based in something less than fact, but the Japanese history within Japan of the attractiveness of white skin has nothing to do with internalized racism. How could it when Japan was an island country with only one race when this tradition first arose?

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

There are a lot of assumptions going on with this entire thread that I think that are based in something less than fact, but the Japanese history within Japan of the attractiveness of white skin has nothing to do with internalized racism. How could it when Japan was an island country with only one race when this tradition first arose?

Internalized racism can also refer to the idea of "white features" being considered more beautiful. No, Japan doesn't have many more races - but that doesn't mean it's completely cut off from the world. Maybe many Japanese citizens haven't seen black people with their own eyes, but they DO see them - and they DO exist. They might see black people, or anyone with darker skin, portrayed on the TV or in movies. The way that many black people and darker skinned people are portrayed influences people's thoughts and ideas.

If all you see on TV are people with lighter skin, and shows and movies suggest that people with lighter skin are more beautiful than people with darker skin - then yes, you can fall victim to internalized racism. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. Media has a huge control over race relations. All you need is a TV.

And ESPECIALLY for something like fashion, where most models are going to be people with lighter skin because lighter skin is considered more beautiful - yeah, internalized racism is pretty prominent, no matter where you are.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Internalized racism can also refer to the idea of "white features" being considered more beautiful. No, Japan doesn't have many more races - but that doesn't mean it's completely cut off from the world.

Actually when this tradition began that is exactly what Japan was: cut off from the rest of the world. No foreigners were allowed into Japan. It was called a "chain country" meaning it was like a chain was around the isolated islands of Japan.

The pale skin of the elite was considered more attractive than the darker skin of those that worked in the fields. At the same time, black or crooked teeth were not considered a negative and there are stories of women with perfectly white teeth who break them with rocks to get a man.

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Maybe many Japanese citizens haven't seen black people with their own eyes, but they DO see them - and they DO exist. They might see black people, or anyone with darker skin, portrayed on the TV or in movies. The way that many black people and darker skinned people are portrayed influences people's thoughts and ideas.

If all you see on TV are people with lighter skin, and shows and movies suggest that people with lighter skin are more beautiful than people with darker skin - then yes, you can fall victim to internalized racism. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. Media has a huge control over race relations. All you need is a TV.

And ESPECIALLY for something like fashion, where most models are going to be people with lighter skin because lighter skin is considered more beautiful - yeah, internalized racism is pretty prominent, no matter where you are.

Again, the tradition of lighter skin as more attractive than darker skin is has a long tradition before the modern era in Japan, and before black people were in Japan.

Nowdays that tradition is just that, a tradition. For as many women that avoid the sun to keep their skin pale, there are as many women who go to tanning salons and beaches to get their skin dark. Neither fad, fashion or tradition has anything to do with black people. I am not saying there isn't racism in Japan, but this "truism" really has nothing to do with black people...or white people, for that matter.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

Actually when this tradition began that is exactly what Japan was: cut off from the rest of the world. No foreigners were allowed into Japan. It was called a "chain country" meaning it was like a chain was around the isolated islands of Japan.

The pale skin of the elite was considered more attractive than the darker skin of those that worked in the fields. At the same time, black or crooked teeth were not considered a negative and there are stories of women with perfectly white teeth who break them with rocks to get a man.


Again, the tradition of lighter skin as more attractive than darker skin is has a long tradition before the modern era in Japan, and before black people were in Japan.

Nowdays that tradition is just that, a tradition. For as many women that avoid the sun to keep their skin pale, there are as many women who go to tanning salons and beaches to get their skin dark. Neither fad, fashion or tradition has anything to do with black people. I am not saying there isn't racism in Japan, but this "truism" really has nothing to do with black people...or white people, for that matter.

We're not stuck in the Meiji Era. It's 2009. I've seen plenty of dramas and movies and magazines with black people in them. They are not cut off from the world - at least, not enough to not know who black people and white people are. I believe that internalized racism exists in Japan, to the point where many young people have looked at Western foreigners in the media and have wanted to copy them by bleaching their hair blonde and wearing light color contacts. Internalized racism shows itself in the women who get eye surgery to make their eyes look more "Western." With the ideas of wanting to look attractive by looking Western are the ideas that is unattractive to be black.

Light skin being more attractive is also a tradition in America and in most countries you travel to. Saying that it was a tradition in Japan long before black people set foot in the country doesn't change the fact that, today, when I step foot in Japan, people will see my skin and think that I'm not attractive - just as when I step foot in America, Brazil, England, ANYWHERE.

In the days of the confederate flag in the USA, people wanted to defend tradition - leaving the essentials rights of human beings behind. No, Japan isn't America. That doesn't change the fact that these are two countries filled with human beings - and human beings, around the world - no matter the history or geography - has the same habit of racism and oppression, no matter how subtle it is.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

We're not stuck in the Meiji Era. It's 2009. I've seen plenty of dramas and movies and magazines with black people in them. They are not cut off from the world - at least, not enough to not know who black people and white people are. I believe that internalized racism exists in Japan, to the point where many young people have looked at Western foreigners in the media and have wanted to copy them by bleaching their hair blonde and wearing light color contacts. Internalized racism shows itself in the women who get eye surgery to make their eyes look more "Western." With the ideas of wanting to look attractive by looking Western are the ideas that is unattractive to be black.

Mercedesjin, racism is wherever you want to find it, and if you want to find racism in Japansese traditions that have nothing to do with black people, then you certainly can. Your stay in Japan will certainly be an exercise in frustration if this is the approach you want to take.

You are making the assumption that Japanese traditions do not influence the mindset of modern Japanese thinking. Yes it is 2009, but that doesn't mean that history and tradition do not influence the choices people make today.

Bleached hair: Everyone in Japan has black hair. So why would someone want a different hair color? Because that want to look more white and less black? C'mon! How arrogant do we have to be to think all Japanese fashion is based on white people and black people? Doesn't it make sense that hair bleaching is not about looking more like Britney Spears, but just being different than mom? If it was about being more white than black, then explain to me why Japanese girls perm their hair, and some (men and women) even perm them into afro-style looks?

Color contacts: Everyone in Japan has brown eyes. So to want a different eye-color that happens to be the same eye-color as most black people is racist? Again, how arrogant do we have to be as non-Japanese to think like this? Japanese don't get different color contacts to be more white and less black. If that were true why are non-natural (in the white world) colors as popular? (yellow...cat eye...all black)?

Eye surgery: You got me stumped on this one. How is larger, rounder eyes "less black"? If anything is it more black. If they made their eyes more narrow, then you might have an argument.

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Light skin being more attractive is also a tradition in America and in most countries you travel to. Saying that it was a tradition in Japan long before black people set foot in the country doesn't change the fact that, today, when I step foot in Japan, people will see my skin and think that I'm not attractive - just as when I step foot in America, Brazil, England, ANYWHERE.

The idea of pale skin being attractive for Japanese comes from the tradition of pale skin being attractive for Japanese. I am not going to apologize when I say in a mono-racial society, it's not about you.

But to look at it another way, in popular culture right now (especially as summer begins) multi-ethnic artists and darker skin are very popular. I have a Japanese friend who is in Hawaii right now getting as tan as she can before heading home. It's not about being black or being white (why would it be) but being in fashion. Japan is not a multi-racial country like America, England or Brazil, and to think they think about these racial issues when tanning or avoiding the sun is, again, arrogance.

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

In the days of the confederate flag in the USA, people wanted to defend tradition - leaving the essentials rights of human beings behind. No, Japan isn't America. That doesn't change the fact that these are two countries filled with human beings - and human beings, around the world - no matter the history or geography - has the same habit of racism and oppression, no matter how subtle it is.

1) To compare the history of the confederate flag in any way with a Japanese woman's desire to use a parasol in the sun to protect her skin is the paramount of bulls***.

2) Not all human beings around the world have the same history, background, inclinations, and upbringings. So if you want to say the isolated Eskimos in Alaska are as equally racist as the KKK of the American south, the nationals of Haiti and the aboriginal Ainu of Hokkaido , that is your right as a person, but it seems like a very short-sighted perspective to me.

[ozkai]

Originally Posted by BlacKitty89

Hey there...

I noticed that many japanese girls and guys want to have white skin. What's so nice about beeing white?

Could somebody explain that to me? Has it to do with the gothloli culture?

Arigatou!

Japanese women like to protect their skin from the sun and go to extreme lengths to achieve it. So no doubt that's why many have white skin.

Certainly in my location we have many Japanese and their skin goes very brown here in the tropics. You really couldn't live here if you liked white skin as the radiation is extreme.

Thailand both male and female or also the same.

Simple as that really..

Then you get the Aussie chicks that wanna be black and lay at the beach all day plastered in oil and end up looking like fried lobsters!

When they get older, their skin starts to resemble soggy uncooked chicken skin with some crinkle cut pattern atop, and faces like peperoni pizzas!

If you have a look at older Japanese (Usually the women are more sun conscious than men), you will see how good the skin is.

Older people in the UK are similar to Japanese.

Of course living in Australia, we are very close to the sun.

Hope this places some more sensible rectification on your original query.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

Mercedesjin, racism is wherever you want to find it.

I'm sorry, this is all I read and that's all I will read. This is the most common comment made by men and women who have privilege in whichever society they live in, and simply do not want to see the oppression created by human society to keep groups of people down economically and emotionally. I've also experienced too many people who simply will not see racism, because that makes them personally feel uncomfortable, and will defend racism to no end - even people who have been oppressed.

I'm sorry if it's offensive that I haven't read or responded to your entire post, but you suggested a few days ago that I pick and choose my battles. I'm definitely not choosing this one. I'm done.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

I'm sorry, this is all I read and that's all I will read. This is the most common comment made by men and women who have privilege in whichever society they live in, and simply do not want to see the oppression created by human society to keep groups of people down economically and emotionally. I've also experienced too many people who simply will not see racism, because that makes them personally feel uncomfortable, and will defend racism to no end - even people who have been oppressed.

I'm sorry if it's offensive that I haven't read or responded to your entire post, but you suggested a few days ago that I pick and choose my battles. I'm definitely not choosing this one. I'm done.

I am sorry you have chosen not to read my post because I address every point you mentioned.

I hoped we could have had a good discussion on this topic, but you have chosen to close the door on a perception you have already decided about a person you know nothing about. (A little like when you said my uses of the word "gays" was condescending.)

I was hoping I could help give you a wider perspective before your departure, but am sorry you have decided this veteran of Japan and veteran of fighting for equality probably before you were even born is not a reliable source of information.

Best to you and I am sure you will find what it is you seek.

EDIT: actually this is the second time I have uses the phrase "racism is wherever you want to find it" with you, but for some reason it didn't seem to bother you the first time.

Again, I hoped we could have had an open discussion about these topics. If the words I use shut down the ability to communicate, then...

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by MMM

Bleached hair: Everyone in Japan has black hair. So why would someone want a different hair color? Because that want to look more white and less black? C'mon! How arrogant do we have to be to think all Japanese fashion is based on white people and black people? Doesn't it make sense that hair bleaching is not about looking more like Britney Spears, but just being different than mom? If it was about being more white than black, then explain to me why Japanese girls perm their hair, and some (men and women) even perm them into afro-style looks?

I got a kick out of this one.

I have dyed my hair black a couple of times in my life. Never due to racial influence, even if it is uncommon for anglo-saxons to have truly black hair. It was just gothic fashion, as Japan has its own fashions today, yet most a fairly original.

Of course, a lot of Asia is heavily influenced by the west, mostly because we rode in on horses with bags full of gold (or stealing bags full of gold...) and have managed to dominate the world vastly since that era. But that is little racism. Every powerful nation influences its weaker neighbour heavily. As the English are strong now, but why not inquire as to why there are so many Arab words in our language?

Hair color, I don't see as western influence. But if you look at the fashion things that are, such as closed shoes, WOW, ... I mean, you must have a grudge against trade... it isn't an issue.

Originally Posted by MMM

Color contacts: Everyone in Japan has brown eyes. So to want a different eye-color that happens to be the same eye-color as most black people is racist? Again, how arrogant do we have to be as non-Japanese to think like this? Japanese don't get different color contacts to be more white and less black. If that were true why are non-natural (in the white world) colors as popular? (yellow...cat eye...all black)?

I think the desire to have larger eyes comes from viewing their own race, rather than ours. Simply, it is what they find attractive, but it doesn't mean it is our influence, and it certainly doesn't mean racism is involved.

White people have long noses, and often complain about their nose being too big. But that doesn't mean we want to have flat noses like Asians do, it is just what we think looking at ourselves.

It only becomes racism when social exclusion occurs due to someone not being able to tick all the desired boxes. This isn't the case with passing fashions.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

I'm sorry, this is all I read and that's all I will read. This is the most common comment made by men and women who have privilege in whichever society they live in, and simply do not want to see the oppression created by human society to keep groups of people down economically and emotionally. I've also experienced too many people who simply will not see racism, because that makes them personally feel uncomfortable, and will defend racism to no end - even people who have been oppressed.

I'm sorry if it's offensive that I haven't read or responded to your entire post, but you suggested a few days ago that I pick and choose my battles. I'm definitely not choosing this one. I'm done.

You fail then because MMM's points trump yours.

I'll just add that you can only say Internalized racism is a factor when dealing with race directly. Any connection you make between mainstream Japanese perceptions of beauty amongst themselves and portrayals of Black people by the media are not very credible because you can do little more than suggest them. Also that this tradition has been long established before black people even existed in the consciousness of Japanese society is a much better, more rational explanation.