The complex Alphabet

[Veespin]

But see in your sentence it just has romanized lettering, not romanized Japanese, so I'm trying to figure out which one you mean.

And saying that kanji is not originally Japanese because I said that romaji is not is just a slippery slope my friend.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Veespin

But see in your sentence it just has romanized lettering, not romanized Japanese, so I'm trying to figure out which one you mean.

Read what I read:

Originally Posted by MMM

I don't think I tried to claim that Japanese words romanized using the alphabet was common, but you see names of train stations, as well as shop names often in romaji. This isn't uncommon on menus, too.

I don't feel like repeating myself, and I am not sure why you are focusing on a very small point that has little to do with the discussion. I said Romaji appears often and is mixed in with hiragana, katakana and kanji often. I didn't say "romanized Japanese", though it does appear in certain situations I already talked about.

The whole point is that misleading information was giving saying these four writing systems are used independently of each other, and that simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by Veespin

And saying that kanji is not originally Japanese because I said that romaji is not is just a slippery slope my friend.

Is it really? I am curious how much further that slippery slope can go.

Anyway, I am not so shallow a person as to say "kanji isn't from Japan" BECAUSE you said the alphabet isn't. I pointed that out because kanji certainly is used in conjunction with hiragana and katakana, even though it isn't originally Japanese, so saying something that isn't originally Japanese can't be used in conjunction with hiragana and katakana isn't a solid argument.

[killrb323]

I read somewhere that nihonjin think romaji names and logos look cool, but to me it just seems like since they learn four writing systems in school and are taught to use hirigana, katakana, and kanji interchangably, so they just don't consider romaji to be any different.

Am I totally off base?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by killrb323

I read somewhere that nihonjin think romaji names and logos look cool, but to me it just seems like since they learn four writing systems in school and are taught to use hirigana, katakana, and kanji interchangably, so they just don't consider romaji to be any different.

Am I totally off base?

I am not so sure if it is "romaji" names or simply non-Japanese names that can seem exotic for some Japanese. That being said, if you go to a mall, like Hep5 in Osaka, most of the store names are written in Romaji.

I don't think you are totally off base, but a Japanese native might give a better answer.

[Nagoyankee]

Originally Posted by killrb323

I read somewhere that nihonjin think romaji names and logos look cool, but to me it just seems like since they learn four writing systems in school and are taught to use hirigana, katakana, and kanji interchangably, so they just don't consider romaji to be any different.

Am I totally off base?

Yes, you are off base reagrding us being taught to use the three systems interchangeably. They almost never are intechangeable in good writing.

But you are right about the Roman alphabet looking cool to us. Except for the use of romaji at train stations, airports, road signs, etc. where it's used for the obvious purpose of helping the non-Japanese, we mostly use it for a design purposes rather than commucation ones.

[Nyororin]

My, how this topic deviated from the original question...

I think Veespin has a point though. From the start, romaji was brought up as another form of writing Japanese. If you ask the average person in Japan what romaji means, they will tell you that it`s the transcription of Japanese sounds into the roman alphabet. NOT the use of the alphabet itself.

Yes, the roman alphabet is used often in abbreviations - such as MMM`s example (PC, DVD, etc)... But not romaji. You only ever really see romaji in use as a style aspect, or on public signs together with the regular Japanese. (Not just trains, every intersection is also labeled in romaji.

But used all together in a sentence or even a paragraph is pretty rare. There is no rule against it being done, and it is entirely possible... But people just don`t. It`s usually considered a pain to write something or read something in romaji. Try it with a local Japanese friend! Write a sentence in romaji and see how much they stumble reading it. Throw a random romaji word into a normal Japanese sentence and see how long it takes for them to realize that it`s even a Japanese word. There are no cases where a Japanese word written in romaji is easier to parse than it`s normal form, therefore no benefit to writing it in romaji. Language tends to take the path of least resistance, which is not that of romaji.

The Roman alphabet is indeed used in Japan to an extent, but not to the point where I`d consider it the 4th writing system.

[MMM]

Thank you, Nyororin for distinguishing "romaji" and the "English alphabet".

Indeed, romaji is the use of the English alphabet to write words in Japanese.

パン　is "pan" in romaji and "bread" in English.

And yes, it would be a mistake to say that hiragana, katakana, romaji and kanji are "interchangeble".

A word like 喫茶店　(tea room) CAN be written using all four systems, but I have certainly almost never seen the word written in romaji and have never seen it written in katakana. I can only ever seeing it written in hiragana in textbooks, but 99% of the time you will see it in kanji.

I don't beleive I said they are "interchangeable", which they aren't, but they they are used in conjunction with each other. (EDIT: Now I see it was Killrb that said that.) The pic I included was one case. They sentence I described was another (and we are mixing talking about "sentences" and "just usage" like in street signs. The use of the English alphabet is much more common on street signs, shop windows, advertisements, etc. than it is in novels, news stories, contracts, etc.).

But, as I said, the Japanese are very familiar with the English alphabet, and are not intimidated by its use.

Which leads me to a question. Abbreviations, like "KY" (short for 空気を読めない, Kuuki wo Yomeni, or someone who has difficulty reading a situation). Is "KY" romaji? English?

[Nagoyankee]

Originally Posted by MMM

Which leads me to a question. Abbreviations, like "KY" (short for 空気を読めない, Kuuki wo Yomeni, or someone who has difficulty reading a situation). Is "KY" romaji? English?

I just call it 'Jabbreviation'!

Hope they don't create too many of those, though. It's linguistically interesting becasue it shows the flexibility of the Japanese language...and probably the Japaense mind as well. Not many languages would have that large of a 'play' in them.

'KYな人' looked like a phrase from outer space when I first saw it on TV. I thought they were talking about somebody from Kentucky!

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by MMM

But, as I said, the Japanese are very familiar with the English alphabet, and are not intimidated by its use.

Unfortunately, as familiar as people are with the English (Roman) alphabet... It doesn`t mean that they`re *skilled* with it`s use. Reading something written in romaji falls somewhere along the lines of trying to read a regular English sentence written all in Katakana. Sure, you can probably do it, but it will take you a bit of time and thought.

Which leads me to a question. Abbreviations, like "KY" (short for 空気を読めない, Kuuki wo Yomeni, or someone who has difficulty reading a situation). Is "KY" romaji? English?

It`s an abbreviation - "kuuki ga yomenai"　(ga seems to be a lot more common than wo) would be romaji. KY is an abbreviation that is read as 空気が読めない. Just as PC is read as パソコン (which I`d consider a Japanese word at this point), and wouldn`t be considered romaji. In the end, the abbreviation ends up being treated as a character itself, of sorts, and loses connection with where it came from.

Your example was pretty timely too. Last night, they had a show on asking people to read KY and some others, and while almost everyone could read it (sometimes not the exact phrase, but the same meaning), less than a third knew that it was an abbreviation taken from kuuki ga yomenai.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Nagoyankee

I just call it 'Jabbreviation'!

Hope they don't create too many of those, though. It's linguistically interesting becasue it shows the flexibility of the Japanese language...and probably the Japaense mind as well. Not many languages would have that large of a 'play' in them.

'KYな人' looked like a phrase from outer space when I first saw it on TV. I thought they were talking about somebody from Kentucky!

I agree, I hope not too many more are created, but I saw a TV show where (surprise surprise) young Tokyo gals had already created a bunch, some were pretty long, but there was some "KO" (kusai oyaji) and things of that nature.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Unfortunately, as familiar as people are with the English (Roman) alphabet... It doesn`t mean that they`re *skilled* with it`s use. Reading something written in romaji falls somewhere along the lines of trying to read a regular English sentence written all in Katakana. Sure, you can probably do it, but it will take you a bit of time and thought.



It`s an abbreviation - "kuuki ga yomenai"　(ga seems to be a lot more common than wo) would be romaji. KY is an abbreviation that is read as 空気が読めない. Just as PC is read as パソコン (which I`d consider a Japanese word at this point), and wouldn`t be considered romaji. In the end, the abbreviation ends up being treated as a character itself, of sorts, and loses connection with where it came from.

Your example was pretty timely too. Last night, they had a show on asking people to read KY and some others, and while almost everyone could read it (sometimes not the exact phrase, but the same meaning), less than a third knew that it was an abbreviation taken from kuuki ga yomenai.

As always, Nyororin, thanks for the clarification. That's intersting that so few knew what the abbreviation meant...despite the popularity of the book(s). I guess it's true in English...we use words from French and other languages, and know what they "mean" without knowing thier roots.