The complex Alphabet

[kpauner]

I tried reading some japanese websites and i didnt understand anything (no wonder) so i am starting to learn it..
But how do you even read it? it seems to me that it is several alphabets MIXED together. I mean i have a sheet here with the Hiragana alphabet and i also notice some of the letters are hiragana on the website, but then suddenly some very complex letters are mixed in, Are those kanji? And if they are, arent there like Thousands of kanji out there how can you even learn them??

Any help is appreciated..

[MissMisa]

Hiragana and Katakana Practice - Real Kana

This site is really good for learning Japanese Katakana and Hiragana.

[Gaberdeen]

Japanese use 4 "alphabets"

They use the roman alphabet - which is your standard a to z - typically called "Romanji" - each japanese word is phonetically represented (written the way it sounds) like

to-kyo
kyo-to
bo-ku
wa-ta-shi

etc etc

Each sound like "to" and "kyo" are represented by Hiragana characters. (which I would display if this baka konpyuta supported it) Hiragana is the primary japanese character alphabet.

There exists also a 3rd alphabet which encompasses foreign words that the Japanese use - such as "coffee" and "heater" - these are represented by "katakana" which is again a phonetic alphabet specifically used for loanwords

the 4th Alphabet is Kanji - Which I think originally was brought to japan by Buddhist monks from China. These characters are a great deal more complex than hiragana or katakana and in certain instances Kanji characters can replace many japanese words built using hiragana.

if you are serious about learning japanese - you need to learn it in the order of;

Hiragana, Katakana and then Kanji - good luck.

[kpauner]

ooh okey, this basically means that in longer pieces of texts 4 different alphabets are used simultaneously. Where we use 28 letters in 1 alphabet (in Denmark) The Japanese uses thousands in 4 different alphabets..?
Or have i misunderstood something? This seems like a lot of work, just to be able to read a newspaper..

btw: Thanks for the help both of you

[Gaberdeen]

Originally Posted by kpauner

ooh okey, this basically means that in longer pieces of texts 4 different alphabets are used simultaneously. Where we use 28 letters in 1 alphabet (in Denmark) The Japanese uses thousands in 4 different alphabets..?
Or have i misunderstood something? This seems like a lot of work, just to be able to read a newspaper..

btw: Thanks for the help both of you

No, all 4 are not used simultaneously, Romanji (abc etc) is conveniently designed so westerners can phonetically pronounce japanese words using the roman alphabet - most japanese are educated to know how to write and read romanised japanese (Romanji)

hiragana, katakana and kanji are sometimes used simultaneously.

It IS a lot of work, Japanese is a rewarding language though and through it, i've began a process of realisation regarding it that has me thinking it's actually simpler in it's design and use than english

Sounds preposterous I know! But if you persevere, you'll see what I mean.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Gaberdeen

No, all 4 are not used simultaneously, Romanji (abc etc) is conveniently designed so westerners can phonetically pronounce japanese words using the roman alphabet - most japanese are educated to know how to write and read romanised japanese (Romanji)

hiragana, katakana and kanji are sometimes used simultaneously.

It IS a lot of work, Japanese is a rewarding language though and through it, i've began a process of realisation regarding it that has me thinking it's actually simpler in it's design and use than english

Sounds preposterous I know! But if you persevere, you'll see what I mean.

Sorry, but it is very common to see all four used simultaneously. I just translated a sentence yesterday that had all four writing systems. Romaji (not "romanji") is hardly ever used for the benefit of non-speakers (train stations and airports are the only real examples I can think of). Spend more than a few days in Japan and you will realize that little is done for the benefit of non-speakers.

Japanese all study English and all know ABCs, so using them to write Japanese words and commonly known English words is not uncommon to see, but it isn't for foreigners benefit.

[Retrogamer77]

Originally Posted by MMM

Sorry, but it is very common to see all four used simultaneously. I just translated a sentence yesterday that had all four writing systems. Romaji (not "romanji") is hardly ever used for the benefit of non-speakers (train stations and airports are the only real examples I can think of). Spend more than a few days in Japan and you will realize that little is done for the benefit of non-speakers.

Japanese all study English and all know ABCs, so using them to write Japanese words and commonly known English words is not uncommon to see, but it isn't for foreigners benefit.

Wow, I never would have known that. I wouldn't have guessed that they used romaji that often, though I can totally understand that they don't do it for the benefit of foreigners.

[MMM]

Here's a typical example...



You can see all four writing systems, and even simple English all mixed together

[Veespin]

MMM, no where in that picture does it show romanized Japanese -- unless it is behind that glare which I can barely make out "AKIHABARA."

Just so you know, normal Japanese writing does NOT use "all four alphabets." I wouldn't even consider romaji as an "alphabet", because it not originally Japanese. Officially there is only 3, and those three are used the most.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Veespin

MMM, no where in that picture does it show romanized Japanese -- unless it is behind that glare which I can barely make out "AKIHABARA.".

Actually, yes, in the glare, it shows Akihabara written in romaji. I would also say that saying "3F" and "4F" is a way of denoting floors in a building that is more common in Japan than it is in the US.

My point still stands. In this little pic I found after a 10 second search is a Japanese store-front with no less than 14 usages of ABCs in projecting information, and information that isn't necessarily being directed to foreigners, but to Japanese natives.

Originally Posted by Veespin

Just so you know, normal Japanese writing does NOT use "all four alphabets." I wouldn't even consider romaji as an "alphabet", because it not originally Japanese. Officially there is only 3, and those three are used the most.

Whether romaji came from Japan isn't the issue. Kanji didn't come from Japan either, but you wouldn't say that Japanese don't use it every day.

The sentence I translated yesterday was from a manga where someone was talking about how children's presents had become more complicated than the Japan of the past. 「今の子は XBOX のソフトしか欲しがらない。」 All kids today want are Xbox games. (or something close to that). It stuck out when I say Gaberdeen's statement that all four writing systems (not "alphabets") were not used at all simultaneously, where there is a perfect example of that exact situation.

I don't think I tried to claim that Japanese words romanized using the alphabet was common, but you see names of train stations, as well as shop names often in romaji. This isn't uncommon on menus, too.

Most Japanese sentences would be a combination of kanji, katakana and hiragana. I simply said it wasn't uncommon to see all four used, and a typical Japanese is not intimidated by the English alphabet, so it is wrong to assume that any usage of the English alphabet we do see in Japan is for foreigners' benefit.