JapanForum.com  


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
(#11 (permalink))
Old
Nathan's Avatar
Nathan (Offline)
JF Old Timer
 
Posts: 517
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canada
07-07-2008, 12:27 AM

It does when you are just stating "I am X", but not in the full introduction ritual.
Reply With Quote
(#12 (permalink))
Old
masaegu's Avatar
masaegu (Offline)
永遠の愛
 
Posts: 2,573
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Central Tokyo
07-07-2008, 07:37 AM

We Japanese try to avoid using pronouns wherever possible.
Reply With Quote
(#13 (permalink))
Old
Nagoyankee's Avatar
Nagoyankee (Offline)
中庸を得るのだ~
 
Posts: 2,119
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tokyo, Japan
07-07-2008, 07:44 AM

This is something that one could write a whole chapter on. But I wll keep it brief because I'm no writer.

Unlike in Indo-European languages, in which the speaker can and probably should use as many pronouns as he pleases, in Japanese one is expected to use as few pronouns as possible. This is all cultural so you cannot really ask why but you must accept what's considered the norm in a particular language, or you will simply sound 'strange' even while being grammatically completely correct.

If I meet someone for the first time and he says "ジョンソンです。", I will know whose name he is telling me. I will not go "Who is Johnson?" So in Japanese, you will omit '私は'. If you don't omit it, you will sound 'unnatural' and 'unecessarily wordy'.

Of course the more formal way to say that is:

ジョンソンと申します。= I am Johnson. 申す= もうす

You would be expected to use that form in formal and business situations. In fact, it would be the only form acceptable. DO NOT try to be creative with these set phrases. You will always have a chance to show your creativity later on in the conversation, but not in the greeting/self-introduction part.

Now the two people know each other's names. From now on, use the other person's name instead of the second-person pronoun ('you' in English). Yes, you heard me right. Don't address the other person with any form of 'you' in Japanese. Add さん or 様(さま) to the name depending on the occasion. If the other person asked you to use his nickname, then use it. If you get to know the other person well over some time, then you might start addressing each other using second-person pronouns. But this will not happen in the business world.

Let me give you one example of how the difference in the use of pronouns between Japanese and English once shocked me. During the first or second year of my English studies, we had this sentence in our textbook.

"I wish I had more money in my pocket."

I was stunned. That sentence looked out of this world. That's like 'me' thrice in such a short sentence! In Japanese, there will be no pronouns in it. None!

「ポケットにもっとお金があったらなあと思う。」 

Who could wish that but the speaker himself? Whose pocket could he be referring to but his own? Why I-I-my?? We use no pronouns in that kind of a sentence.

I'd like you to get shocked by these facts just as I was shocked and almost fainted when I saw the then impossible sentence, "I wish I had more money in my pocket". This is none other than culture shock. You can either get over it by practicing or let it stand tall like a wall in front of you forever.

Kanpai to Language!
Reply With Quote
(#14 (permalink))
Old
Kaede's Avatar
Kaede (Offline)
JF Regular
 
Posts: 38
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London, UK
07-07-2008, 11:42 AM

Hey Nagoyankee,

That was a very interesting post and explained something I have been puzziling over the last few days. As I am new to Japanese, I am finding it hard to say sentences which seem to omit so much! I am finding it just as unnatural to say things like "kyoo oyogimasu" which is essentially "Today will swim" but really it means "I will swim today" or "I will go swimming today".

Crazy stuff, but very interesting!
Reply With Quote
(#15 (permalink))
Old
jrocka83's Avatar
jrocka83 (Offline)
Gaikokujin
 
Posts: 96
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Okinawa, Sasebo, Fukuoka
Send a message via Yahoo to jrocka83 Send a message via Skype™ to jrocka83
07-07-2008, 12:35 PM

{Doing the party boy dance.} Hajimashite!!!!! Watashi Hard Gay Desu..... Wooohhhhh..{Grinding persons leg} Genki.. Genki..! {Nohonjin cover face with humiliating laughter, I continue to give them the party boy dance.}

Reply With Quote
(#16 (permalink))
Old
Kaede's Avatar
Kaede (Offline)
JF Regular
 
Posts: 38
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London, UK
07-07-2008, 12:40 PM

LOL what does Genki mean?
Reply With Quote
(#17 (permalink))
Old
jrocka83's Avatar
jrocka83 (Offline)
Gaikokujin
 
Posts: 96
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Okinawa, Sasebo, Fukuoka
Send a message via Yahoo to jrocka83 Send a message via Skype™ to jrocka83
07-07-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaede View Post
LOL what does Genki mean?
Happy, Hyper, Horny, or full of energy.
Reply With Quote
(#18 (permalink))
Old
TalnSG's Avatar
TalnSG (Offline)
Busier Than Shinjuku Station
 
Posts: 1,330
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Texas
Send a message via ICQ to TalnSG
07-07-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagoyankee View Post
In my rather long life as a Japanese-speaker, I don't think that I have ever said or heard another Japanese say "Watashi wa (name) desu." That just sounds plain 'foreign' to me.
As student who recently returned from a short stay in Tokyo said that in my Nihongo class the first week of class. We knew from the look on sensai's face that she did not consider it appropriate. She didn't correct him, but went on to remind us that she was teaching us a level of formality to use with strangers and in business dealings.


Only an open mind and open heart can be filled with life.
*********************
Find your voice; silence will not protect you.
Reply With Quote
(#19 (permalink))
Old
SSJup81's Avatar
SSJup81 (Offline)
Busier Than Shinjuku Station
 
Posts: 1,474
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central Virginia (Yamagata currently)
Send a message via ICQ to SSJup81 Send a message via AIM to SSJup81 Send a message via MSN to SSJup81 Send a message via Yahoo to SSJup81 Send a message via Skype™ to SSJup81
07-07-2008, 05:00 PM

What if you're introducing yourself to a group of people?
Reply With Quote
(#20 (permalink))
Old
Nagoyankee's Avatar
Nagoyankee (Offline)
中庸を得るのだ~
 
Posts: 2,119
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tokyo, Japan
07-08-2008, 01:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJup81 View Post
What if you're introducing yourself to a group of people?

Doesn't matter how many people you are talking to. If you say "(Name)と申します" or "(Name)です", everyone knows whose name it is. When the listener(s) should know who you are referring to, you drop the pronoun.... that is if you want to sound natural (and proper) to the native speaker.

My English looks ok, doesn't it? That's because I'm observing its rules and trying to meet the general expectations of its native speakers. If I started writing English by translating word for word from Japanese, I don't think you would even bother to read my posts. Should I try and write my next post without using pronouns?

So it's the same thing. We won't laugh at you if you use lots of pronouns in Japanese. But you sure will sound 'strange'.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright 2003-2006 Virtual Japan.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6