Hiragana & Kanji

[chryuop]

Originally Posted by Troo

There are multiple readings for most kanji - the onyomi and kunyomi. The onyomi is the "chinese" reading (or, rather, the japanised pronunciation of the chinese reading), and the kunyomi is the Japanese word that the kanji is used for.

Many kanji have up to around five readings - multiple onyomi and / or kunyomi.

Hurrah!

It is fair to say though that 音読み (onyomi) are kinda limited and repeat themselves. I know somewhere in internet you can find the pattern they use, I lost that URL (not that I understood much out of it).

[Tangram]

Originally Posted by Troo

There are multiple readings for most kanji - the onyomi and kunyomi. The onyomi is the "chinese" reading (or, rather, the japanised pronunciation of the chinese reading), and the kunyomi is the Japanese word that the kanji is used for.

Many kanji have up to around five readings - multiple onyomi and / or kunyomi.

Hurrah!

I'm aware. I wasn't referring to readings, but rather individual characters. The person I quoted didn't understand where the figure of 5,000 characters came from.

[Troo]

Originally Posted by chryuop

It is fair to say though that 音読み (onyomi) are kinda limited and repeat themselves. I know somewhere in internet you can find the pattern they use, I lost that URL (not that I understood much out of it).

I'm also finding it a lot easier to learn the language, then learn kanji, then learn more words, then more kanji. It helps to learn readings if you already know the words - cuts half the trouble out.

Originally Posted by Tangram

I'm aware. I wasn't referring to readings, but rather individual characters. The person I quoted didn't understand where the figure of 5,000 characters came from.

Aye. I just figured the OP might like to know

[KyleGoetz]

The latin-based words we use in English sure are English words. Just like "croissant" is an English word even though it comes from French, "video" is an English word even though it is literally the Latin phrase for "I see," etc.

Just because you don't think it's English doesn't make it so.

I mean, is "sushi" not an English word? Is "karaoke" not an English word? Is "opera" not an English word (Italian plural for "opus")? Is "fjord" not an English word? Is "parrot" not an English word (from French)? Is "Africa" not an English word (from Latin)? Etc.

And as far as the number of Kanji, the 大漢和辞典 has 50,000 characters. Not all of them are in use in Japan (or China), but I'd say that suggests there's more than 2,000 characters.

[Tangram]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

The latin-based words we use in English sure are English words. Just like "croissant" is an English word even though it comes from French, "video" is an English word even though it is literally the Latin phrase for "I see," etc.

Just because you don't think it's English doesn't make it so.

I mean, is "sushi" not an English word? Is "karaoke" not an English word? Is "opera" not an English word (Italian plural for "opus")? Is "fjord" not an English word? Is "parrot" not an English word (from French)? Is "Africa" not an English word (from Latin)? Etc.

And as far as the number of Kanji, the 大漢和辞典 has 50,000 characters. Not all of them are in use in Japan (or China), but I'd say that suggests there's more than 2,000 characters.

I didn't say Latin-based. I said Latin. ^.^ I meant actual Latin words (and other languages) that we use but aren't really considered English. A priori? Deus ex machina? Even ergo. Those are terms students of English probably wouldn't learn unless they spoke with native speakers, or perhaps studying in English the field in which said terms are involved. Do you see the analogy now?

[jesselt]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

And as far as the number of Kanji, the 大漢和辞典 has 50,000 characters. Not all of them are in use in Japan (or China), but I'd say that suggests there's more than 2,000 characters.

This is where the phrase "In-Use" comes up.

[chryuop]

Hey, in Italy we use the words baseball, football, computer, baby sitter...how stupid I am. Thank you Kyle I didn't know they were Italian words and not English

[KyleGoetz]

chryuop, if you use a word in Italian and it's not a rare occurence in the language, it's Italian.

Tangram, I consider "a priori" an English phrase because I use it on a regular basis as a native speaker.I consider Deus ex machina and English phrase as well. "Ergo" I'm not so sure about because I never hear anyone using it unless they're trying to be pretentious by using Latin words.

And so what if an English student wouldn't use the word? They wouldn't learn the word "aglet" either, but that's undeniably an English word. What is your criteria for "word in XXX language"? What makes "fjord" an English word but "a priori" not English?

I mean, would you consider コンピューター not Japanese? Would you consider しよう not Japanese because it's a Japanese attempt at pronouncing the Chinese 使 and 用?

[Troo]

It's remarkably silly to try and claim loanwords belong to any language. They are exactly that - loanwords. Although English is a mix of Latinate and Germanic languages (and thus contains 600,000 common-vocabulary words, as opposed to the 200,000 common-vocabulary words in French or 300,000 in German), usage, spelling and pronunciation have shifted so much over the centuries that it is it's own tongue.

Words and phrases like fjord, cul de sac, a priori, deus ex machina, tagiatelle and so on have changed neither in spelling, pronunciation or meaning since they were adopted by the English, and thus remain loanwords. We all use them, we all understand what they mean, and eventualy one day they may mutate to become genuinely English. But at this moment in time they remain of the language which spawned them - particularly Latin words and phrases, as Latin is not evolving and changing with time, so their meanings will never be altered within the context of native speech.

Give yourself a little credit for knowing a large number of foreign words

[chryuop]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

chryuop, if you use a word in Italian and it's not a rare occurence in the language, it's Italian.

Tangram, I consider "a priori" an English phrase because I use it on a regular basis as a native speaker.I consider Deus ex machina and English phrase as well. "Ergo" I'm not so sure about because I never hear anyone using it unless they're trying to be pretentious by using Latin words.

And so what if an English student wouldn't use the word? They wouldn't learn the word "aglet" either, but that's undeniably an English word. What is your criteria for "word in XXX language"? What makes "fjord" an English word but "a priori" not English?

I mean, would you consider コンピューター not Japanese? Would you consider しよう not Japanese because it's a Japanese attempt at pronouncing the Chinese 使 and 用?

I guess American and Italian language professors think differently. Even tho for certain words we have no Italian translation and we use only English words (like baseball or computer) we do not call them Italian words. We call it foreign words borrowed by our language (or borrowed words). Esterofilia (sorry, not sure how to translate it, it is the "love" for foreign countries) is always more growing and not only in Italy. If every country should consider their own, words borrowed from other languages we would end up having a big messy language...which was already tried to be created and failed miserably.