For all not native Japanese speakers!

[Harumaki]

Translate stuff. Go to a newspaper page, copy/paste an article and translate it yourself. (dont use internet, use your own dictionary to research kanji/words so you remember them better)

But seriously, I am learning Japanese now for 4 years and the biggest problems I see are:

- the unbelievable amount of words Japanese uses...
- Kanji knowledge we will never be able to understand. Since Japanese see kanji as words/meaning, but we Western people see Kanji as a symbol with a reading. Think about it, and if you understand what I said here, you will see how enormous the difference is between a native Kanji-reader and non-native...

But, keep trying

[yuriyuri]

Originally Posted by Harumaki

- Kanji knowledge we will never be able to understand. Since Japanese see kanji as words/meaning, but we Western people see Kanji as a symbol with a reading. Think about it, and if you understand what I said here, you will see how enormous the difference is between a native Kanji-reader and non-native...

Just out of interest, why do you think we will never be able to understand this Kanji knowledge?
I am a westerner but through exposure to enough of a certain Kanji I can start to see their meanings rather than just a "symbol with a reading".

Please give examples of your experience, because I am genuinely interested as to why your kanji experience is so vastly different to mine.
Why is it that you can't see meaning?

(Also I am interested because the way you wrote your post made it seem as though this specific type of Kanji knowledge has been some kind of magical entity which the Japanese people have just acquired through being Japanese and that no one else can have it... At least, that's how I read it anyway)

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by yuriyuri

(Also I am interested because the way you wrote your post made it seem as though this specific type of Kanji knowledge has been some kind of magical entity which the Japanese people have just acquired through being Japanese and that no one else can have it... At least, that's how I read it anyway)

I have to agree with yuriyuri on this.
Why is kanji so incredibly impossible in your thinking? Humans sight read most everything - even words in phonetic writing systems. When you see a word like "cat" written out, you don`t sound it out in your head as something made up of phonetic symbols. You recognize it immediately as meaning, well, "cat". There is generally no thinking in between there - see the "pattern" of "cat" and it is recognized as a near symbol. While the foundation is different, in advanced reading it is no different from encountering a kanji.

Also - Japanese doesn`t use more words than other major languages. I am pretty certain it just seems that way because you do not know the words yet. There are countless ways to say the same thing in English too.

Anyway - I`m a non-native speaker of Japanese, but have refrained from replying in here up until now because I really don`t feel the same way about the language as you seem to. There is nothing mystical or incomprehensible. There is no magical Eastern way of thinking that makes Japanese impenetrable.

[Harumaki]

Ofcourse it is not magical or inhuman or impossible to learn the same style of kanji knowledge.

But lets take some examples. If you see the kanji of cat, you will not see a symbol and you will KNOW it will read/mean cat.

A native kanji user or for my part someone who spend muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch time in learning to understand (note: not read, UNDERSTAND) the true structure of kanji, that person will see the word cat without having to know the reading.

but lets take a much more difficult kanji. A kanji you can not read. Or a word that is made by 5 kanji. A western learner will have to check every reading of all the 5 kanji's WITH meaning to partially understand what that 5 kanji word means. like this one: 高度成長期

I for my part, will have to research all kanji and then see somthing like: high,long, economic, etc etc and then maybe come to the conclusion that this word means 'the economic boom' from Japan.

Tho a native kanji user will see the whole word as one single identity and identify it as the economic boom. Even if he doesnt know the correct reading/meaning of every kanji. And that is, because he has learned kanji at native level. He trully understands the kanji system and structure.

A Western person on the other hand will mostly have to learn the readings and meaning of every single kanji he encounters. Except, like you 2 stated, if he spends maybe many years and much mcuh much effort into it.

I can also start a research discussion with you guys about the critical time period in which a person can become native in a language. (native and being fluent are different!!) But that is a linguistic problem I will not further discuss on the internet :P


So in summary, I wrote a thesis about second language acquiring on a native/fluent level. I researched language skills of deaf people and researched the difference in language skill between kanji users and non-kanji users. All my words are speaking of 'normal' situation. I am not speaking of super intelligent, super motivated or super talented people whoes only desire is to master kanji. No, I am talking about normal person who are learning the Japanese language. And Japanese is not only kanji.

Therefore, it is unbelievable difficult (but not impossible) for a Native western to learn Kanji on the same level as a native japanese kanji user has. (speaking of same IQ level ofcourse)

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Harumaki

But lets take some examples. If you see the kanji of cat, you will not see a symbol and you will KNOW it will read/mean cat.

A native kanji user or for my part someone who spend muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch time in learning to understand (note: not read, UNDERSTAND) the true structure of kanji, that person will see the word cat without having to know the reading.

But... How is "seeing the word cat" different than "knowing it means cat". Japanese natives are not born with an innate knowledge of kanji. There is nothing mystical about the process. They go to school and study for years on end - yes, in an environment where they are in daily use - but study is still required. In school Japanese children learn both meaning and reading. Contrary to what you seem to be saying, if an unknown kanji is encountered there is a greater chance a native speaker will be able to guess it`s reading rather than it`s meaning.
Either way - if they are native Japanese, the meaning "cat" will BE the reading for the kanji of cat.

Tho a native kanji user will see the whole word as one single identity and identify it as the economic boom. Even if he doesnt know the correct reading/meaning of every kanji. And that is, because he has learned kanji at native level. He trully understands the kanji system and structure.

I am sorry but I just do not see this as any different than learning a long word in a phonetic language. It is sight reading. Just as a child may recognize a word without knowing how to sound out each letter on it`s own... Or a native English speaker may associate a word with something despite not actually knowing it`s meaning. This is not a pattern particular to kanji.
Recognizing a longer word has to do with encountering that word - not with "truly understanding the kanji system and structure".

A Western person on the other hand will mostly have to learn the readings and meaning of every single kanji he encounters. Except, like you 2 stated, if he spends maybe many years and much mcuh much effort into it.

Just like Japanese kids learn the readings and meaning of all the Joyo Kanji in school?
You`re treating kanji as if it a naturally acquired skill, as if natives are born with this ability to read them. You`re putting mysticism into this.

I can also start a research discussion with you guys about the critical time period in which a person can become native in a language. (native and being fluent are different!!) But that is a linguistic problem I will not further discuss on the internet :P

As can I. I am also a linguist, and specialized in language acquisition.

So in summary, I wrote a thesis about second language acquiring on a native/fluent level. I researched language skills of deaf people and researched the difference in language skill between kanji users and non-kanji users. All my words are speaking of 'normal' situation. I am not speaking of super intelligent, super motivated or super talented people whoes only desire is to master kanji. No, I am talking about normal person who are learning the Japanese language. And Japanese is not only kanji.

And I did my thesis on the difference in Japanese language acquisition patterns between those following a frequency based path and those following a prepared curriculum path. (In all age groups frequency "won" hands down, by the way - in speed of acquisition, communication confidence, and long term retainment...)

Therefore, it is unbelievable difficult (but not impossible) for a Native western to learn Kanji on the same level as a native japanese kanji user has. (speaking of same IQ level ofcourse)

This isn`t because kanji is particularly difficult or special, however. This is because it is a second language for the learner. Any language less than native is going to suffer, and it is pretty much impossible for a non-native to acquire it on the same level as a native... But that isn`t what I am puzzled by in your writing. It is the level of mystery you seem to be seeing kanji in.
Just as in English, if you have to sound a word out you haven`t had enough exposure to it... With kanji compounds, if you cannot read it as a word (meaning or reading) then it is because you have not had enough exposure to it.

[SceptileMaster]

Well I don't know too many Kanji yet (around 120) so I haven't encountered too many big kanji compounds yet but I don't see the individual readings when I read them. I don't even have to think of them. When I see 有名人 for example I don't read it as ゆうめいじん, I just know it means 'celebrity' from exposure to it and I know that celebrity is ゆうめいじん and therefore I have read it. The same with all that stuff, I know 言語学 is linguistics and I know the word for linguistics is げんごがく therefore I have read it. I'm not thinking about any of it. I have just seen them before so I can recognize them without having to think about their readings. Just like how in English I have seen the word 'beautiful' before so I don't sound it out when I'm reading in my head, I just take it in.

Also as Nyororin said, the Japanese are taught Kanji the same way we learn it. They are made to draw it out to remember the stroke order and learn its meaning as well as its on and kun readings. They are exposed to it more though which is probably why they are more fluent with Kanji than most people who speak Japanese as a second language. This doesn't mean you can't have this exposure if you want to though (by being in Japan or reading a lot of Japanese things for example).

[Harumaki]

Yes, ofcourse you can become as good in kanji understanding as a native speaker, but lets not forget that beinig native means having all language basics from THAT specific language.

And since Japanese and all other languages on the world are different, mastering kanji will be a much harder effort then for a Japanese to learn our long words/wordcomposotions.

I agree with you that with enough exposure, kanji is nothing mystical, extraordinary difficult. But lets be honest, 70% of all learners of Japanese will not be able to get a same level understanding as a native speaker. But well, same counts vice versa.

And to get not any misunderstandings: I agree with all of you, with enough exposure, you will be able to do it. But the gap will not close completely, just become smaller :P
And I must admit, that I suck at kanji, I'm just not visual enough xD didactic learning my trump card, but oh well, with enough work everything is possible

[SceptileMaster]

I disagree that it's the same with our long words. Since a foreign learner learns how to spell every word they learn in English and most native English speakers just seem to pick it up I have noticed that non-native English speakers who learnt formally are generally good spellers.

Also most English speakers I know frequently get some of the basics wrong but I think that's somewhat dependant on where and how you grew up (maybe, I can't be sure).

[hatsuto11]

Originally Posted by Harumaki

Hey guys,

I'm currently in my 4th year studying Japanese and Japanese culture on the university of Leiden. I'm engaged with a Japanese girl and speaking only Japanese at home at the moment.

The reason I make this thread is, because I am interested in hearing/reading the experience of other non-Japanese who learned this awesome language.

Well, my experience:
Since I am in my 4th year and using it every day, I became pretty font of the language itself. Words I didnt hear before can be understood and grammatical constructions are almost all seen at least one time before, so my language skills are almost fluently.

BUT, come on, xD Japanese is soooooooo hard to learn! It has so many synonyms and homonyms, it makes me wanna cry of frustration sometimes
There are soooo many ways to say something in a different way, unbelievable! But maybe it is the level of difficulty to reach a fluent level which makes it attractive to me

How did you experience it? Tell me about your hardships of learning Japanese! aka Mission Almost Impossible!

Thanks in advance for reading and replieing <3

今晩は、春巻さん！貴方に「私の日本語表記体系の学習 経験」について教えたいですので書こうにしました。私 には、簡単な平仮名と片仮名を長い間から勉強しました 。そのあと、漢字という中国を起源とする表語文字を学 び始めてそのとき、習いにくくて、無理そうと思いまし た。ただし、自分は描くことが好きなんですから、とり あえず、漢字の正しい筆順（書き順）と書き方を学習し ようと思いました。数日の後で、漢字の書きで熟達した んですけれども、音・訓読みと漢字の意味をあのころ知 りませんでした。言いたい事は、「私漢字を別々に習っ てる」ということで大丈夫です。でも、貴方達が漢字を 易しくて、可能だと思ったらば、絶対に、全て覚え出来 るかもしれませんね。漢字は明らかに、論理と理解を必 要としますね。それじゃあ、頑張りましょう。

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by SceptileMaster

I disagree that it's the same with our long words. Since a foreign learner learns how to spell every word they learn in English and most native English speakers just seem to pick it up I have noticed that non-native English speakers who learnt formally are generally good spellers.

Also most English speakers I know frequently get some of the basics wrong but I think that's somewhat dependant on where and how you grew up (maybe, I can't be sure).

This isn`t because it isn`t sight reading - it`s because it`s not familiar as it`s a second language. A native speaker would not pick it up either if they had not spent their childhood studying spelling and phonics. Just as a Japanese child is not going to just know kanji without having gone through years of study in school.
After some time and a fair amount of exposure to English and English spelling, learners can also just "pick it up" when it comes to spelling.

Whether people realize it or not, as a native speaker you do have years of study in your native language under your belt simply by having gone to school. With a second language, you do not have this level of schooling. Kanji comes no more naturally to a native Japanese than English spelling comes to a native English speaker. It`s all a result of having spent years and years studying and practicing in school.

Hatsuto...
I don`t even know what to say to your message but... Using as many kanji as you can possible push into your writing isn`t really the best thing and is very very unnatural. Perhaps you should work on your grammar a bit more before using kanji for every single possible thing.