Japanese "r" sound

[paulpk]

mina san konban wa. Sorry about the romaji, Japanese language support is not turned on at my work.

I've been lurking these forums for the last couple of weeks but now I have a question. First I would like to say thanks to everyone, I have found so much good information here. You guys are great.

I have been having trouble with the Japanese "r" sound. ra, ri, ru, re, ro, rya, ryu, ryo. I keep switching between an English "r" and a English "l". I have just been using which one I thinks sound better for the given word. I would like to get the correct pronucation down but so far I have not been able to. What did you guys do the get the Japanese "r" down?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Yuusuke]

Originally Posted by paulpk

mina san konban wa. Sorry about the romaji, Japanese language support is not turned on at my work.

I've been lurking these forums for the last couple of weeks but now I have a question. First I would like to say thanks to everyone, I have found so much good information here. You guys are great.

I have been having trouble with the Japanese "r" sound. ra, ri, ru, re, ro, rya, ryu, ryo. I keep switching between an English "r" and a English "l". I have just been using which one I thinks sound better for the given word. I would like to get the correct pronucation down but so far I have not been able to. What did you guys do the get the Japanese "r" down?

Thanks in advance for your help.

umm practicing the word...

[MMM]

Originally Posted by paulpk

mina san konban wa. Sorry about the romaji, Japanese language support is not turned on at my work.

I've been lurking these forums for the last couple of weeks but now I have a question. First I would like to say thanks to everyone, I have found so much good information here. You guys are great.

I have been having trouble with the Japanese "r" sound. ra, ri, ru, re, ro, rya, ryu, ryo. I keep switching between an English "r" and a English "l". I have just been using which one I thinks sound better for the given word. I would like to get the correct pronucation down but so far I have not been able to. What did you guys do the get the Japanese "r" down?

Thanks in advance for your help.

It is very difficult to explain without using visuals and sound.

I recommend looking up your question on YouTube, or even better, ask a native Japanese speaker.

[jesselt]

The sound is not like an "r" noise at all so you should just forget that as soon as possible. Just listen to native speakers say words like 料理 to practice. I think the sound is much closer to a "L" noise than anything.

[Sashimister]

This is one of the major areas where romaji-users are destined to fail forever.

Forget the letter R even exists (because the letter R or its sound doesn't exist in Japanese).

Found a good video for a start. Note that the lady gives you the bad examples between 0:22 - 0:30.

Place the tip of your tongue against the back of your uper front teeth.
(This is further up front than what you do when producing the English L sound.)
Release your tongue instantly after making a flap sound.

All you English speakers, feel free to correct my English just above if something doesn't make sense.

[BenBullock]

Originally Posted by paulpk

I have been having trouble with the Japanese "r" sound. ra, ri, ru, re, ro, rya, ryu, ryo. I keep switching between an English "r" and a English "l". I have just been using which one I thinks sound better for the given word. I would like to get the correct pronucation down but so far I have not been able to. What did you guys do the get the Japanese "r" down?

My web page - What is roomaji `r' really? - sci.lang.japan Frequently Asked Questions might help with the general idea. It doesn't have any audio files though.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by BenBullock

My web page - What is roomaji `r' really? - sci.lang.japan Frequently Asked Questions might help with the general idea. It doesn't have any audio files though.

I think most Japanese would disagree with the tongue position described on there. I'm one of them.

[Hatredcopter]

As a linguistics major and a Japanese speaker for 6+ years, the positioning shown on the article looks pretty correct to me (maybe off by a tiny bit). Try making the English 'l' and 'r' sound, and you'll find that the Japanese 'r' will fall in between those two (in regards to tongue position).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ticulation.svg

The tongue position lands in between 4 and 5, the area called the alveolar ridge. That's where the Japanese 'r' sound is made.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Hatredcopter

The tongue position lands in between 4 and 5, the area called the alveolar ridge. That's where the Japanese 'r' sound is made.

This is correct, and I believe the explanation written with the linked article is correct... But the picture leaves a LOT to be desired. Based on it alone, I would guess the tongue is landing in the pre-palatal area (6 on the diagram you linked to) instead of between 4 and 5.
I`m guessing it is because they just modified an illustration of the English R sound.

[BenBullock]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

I think most Japanese would disagree with the tongue position described on there. I'm one of them.

My very finest effort with Microsoft Paint?
EDIT: Sorry I've removed this image since I'm going to block hotlinking.
Since I've shown that picture to quite a few Japanese people, I'm fairly sure that most of them wouldn't express any opinion about it; you're the first one who's said anything. But I'd welcome your input on what the correct tongue position is (I'd really like to get a reference from you if possible). The only reference I have with visuals is Japanese Pronunciation guide for English Speakers, but I don't have it to hand.