some questions on numbers and particles

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by pacerier

thanks all for the answers =D as for the particle の, is it true that sometimes its optional. if so how do i decide whether its needed or not. will both of these be acceptable:
ワンさんというひとをしっていますか
ワンさんというのひとをしっていますか
and this 2:
ワンさんの日本語能力はじょうずですね
ワンさんの日本語の能力はじょうずですね

also does this sentence requires the の particle?
これはわたしからのプレゼント

I know I'm always picking on you, but do you seriously write 日本語能力 in kanji and ひと in kana? Isn't 人 easier than any of the kanji used in 日本語能力?

ワンさんというひとをしっていますか is correct.
ワンさんというのひとをしっていますか is incorrect. One never says というの～～.　Place a noun immediately after という.

ワンさんという人 person named Wong
イギリスという国（くに） country named England
ランボーという映画（えいが）　film named Rambo
______

ワンさんの日本語能力はじょうずですね
ワンさんの日本語の能力はじょうずですね

Both are incorrect because you used じょうず. You don't use じょうず to describe one's proficiency in something. Must use たかい/ひくい(high/low).

You can say ワンさんの日本語はじょうずです but not ワンさんの日本語能力はじょうずです.

ワンさんの日本語能力は高（たか）いですね is correct.
ワンさんの日本語の能力は高いですね is correct.

So, when is the の optional? Basically, that's when it's sandwiched between two on-reading words. On-reading words, of course, mean Chinese-origin words.

日本語能力 happens to be a perfect example of this. の is optional.

Other examples:
平均得点（へいきんとくてん）＝　平均の得点 = average score
数学教師（すうがくきょうし）＝　数学の教師 = math teacher
電話回線（でんわかいせん）＝　電話の回線 = telephone lines
__________

これはわたしからのプレゼント

In this phrase, the の is absolutely required.

[pacerier]

ok from now i'll try to write in kanji if i can

thanks too for the information! but i've got some questions about the の particle. is it required/optional if an entire sub-sentence is used as an adjective, like in this sentence これはワンさんという人を撮ったの写真です, should i include/exclude the red "の"?

also are both of these sentences in the correct syntax, and do they mean the same thing:
写真をたくさん撮りました
たくさんの写真を撮りました

and sry for a third question, i was wondering if the に particle required when i use the verb 入れる in other words can i say this: お金を入れてください, instead of ここにお金を入れてください, if its understood (like when i'm pointing with my hands)

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by pacerier

thanks too for the information! but i've got some questions about the の particle. is it required/optional if an entire sub-sentence is used as an adjective, like in this sentence これはワンさんという人を撮ったの写真です, should i include/exclude the red "の"?

You will never use a "Verb + の + Noun" structure. 撮ったの人 is in that structure.

Say 「これはワンさんという人を撮った写真です。」

also are both of these sentences in the correct syntax, and do they mean the same thing:
写真をたくさん撮りました
たくさんの写真を撮りました

Both are grammatical and they mean the same thing. However, I do want to state that the former is the native speaker's choice, and the latter the Japanese learner's "choice". Native speakers prefer placing words like たくさん or 少し or number words right in front of the verb.

Native speakers say　「ハンバーガーを2こ食べた。」

Jpn-learners tend to say　「2このハンバーガーを食べた。」. This is correct but it will always sound foreign to us. Always, because we don't say it that way ourselves.

and sry for a third question, i was wondering if the に particle required when i use the verb 入れる in other words can i say this: お金を入れてください, instead of ここにお金を入れてください, if its understood (like when i'm pointing with my hands)

This is a ここに question, not a に question. ここに will be redundant when both the speaker and listener know exactly where to put the money.

[pacerier]

cool i'll use the number words in front of verbs from now on. i saw this somewhere: 友達の１人が私に会いました. is this form of usage common, or should i be saying this instead: 友達が１人私に会いました

and about ここに and ここで, are both of these sentence structures correct:
ここに車を止めては行けません
ここで車を止めては行けません

also regarding the も and と particle can this 魚も野菜もたべません be said like this 魚と野菜をたべません, or does it sounds weird

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by pacerier

cool i'll use the number words in front of verbs from now on. i saw this somewhere: 友達の１人が私に会いました. is this form of usage common, or should i be saying this instead: 友達が１人私に会いました

and about ここに and ここで, are both of these sentence structures correct:
ここに車を止めては行けません
ここで車を止めては行けません

also regarding the も and と particle can this 魚も野菜もたべません be said like this 魚と野菜をたべません, or does it sounds weird

Both 友達の１人が私に会いました and 友達が１人私に会いました are grmmatical but the chances are you won't ever hear us say either as long as you live. When talking about two people meeting and the speaker is one of them, the speaker wil be the subject of the sentence.

「（私は）友達の一人に会いました。」 > Usual. Use this one.
「（私は）一人の友達に会いました。」 > Sounds like a sentence in a story. "I met a certain friend." Don't use this until you're much more fluent and you know what you're saying.

Both ここに車を止めては行けません and ここで車を止めては行けません will be correct if you don't use the kanji in いけません. The sentence is about parking, not about going. Thus, no kanji.

Both 魚も野菜もたべません and 魚と野菜をたべません are correct and they mean the same thing. Neither sounds weird. Difference is the emphasis on the dislike expressed by the two も.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

Both 魚も野菜もたべません and 魚と野菜をたべません are correct and they mean the same thing. Neither sounds weird. Difference is the emphasis on the dislike expressed by the two も.

Could you elaborate a bit on the difference in emphasis? This is the type of thing I (sadly) don't really have an ear for, so I have to ask specifically for the difference in emphasis when I get a chance.

Kind of like the difference between ピザを食べたい and ピザが食べたい. Just something I had to have someone explain to me.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

Could you elaborate a bit on the difference in emphasis? This is the type of thing I (sadly) don't really have an ear for, so I have to ask specifically for the difference in emphasis when I get a chance.

Kind of like the difference between ピザを食べたい and ピザが食べたい. Just something I had to have someone explain to me.

魚も野菜もたべません and 魚と野菜をたべません both mean "(Someone) eats neither fish nor vegetables." But there is a not-so-small difference in the nuance.

Depending on the context it appears in, 魚も野菜もたべません can have a connotation that this person doesn't really like eating anything, let alone fish and vegetables that are mentioned by name. With the double も, the sentence gives off a pretty strong negativity about this person's unbalanced diet. In the extreme case where you simply refuse to eat, that's 何も食べません. That is a も again.

魚と野菜をたべません, however, just "sounds" different to the native ear. It sounds like it's saying "As for fish and vegtables, I don't care to eat much. But I sure love eating other things." It sounds a whole lot "softer" and "less negative". It's saying that there are merely two groups of food that you don't like eating.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

魚も野菜もたべません and 魚と野菜をたべません both mean "(Someone) eats neither fish nor vegetables." But there is a not-so-small difference in the nuance.

Depending on the context it appears in, 魚も野菜もたべません can have a connotation that this person doesn't really like eating anything, let alone fish and vegetables that are mentioned by name. With the double も, the sentence gives off a pretty strong negativity about this person's unbalanced diet. In the extreme case where you simply refuse to eat, that's 何も食べません. That is a も again.

魚と野菜をたべません, however, just "sounds" different to the native ear. It sounds like it's saying "As for fish and vegtables, I don't care to eat much. But I sure love eating other things." It sounds a whole lot "softer" and "less negative". It's saying that there are merely two groups of food that you don't like eating.

Thanks. That was a great explanation.

[pacerier]

thanks too for the explanation. =P


anyway i was wondering when we use から to join 2 sentences, must the sentence on the left of から be in plain form.

like is this allowed: 試験がありますからどこも行きません, or do i have to use this 試験があるからどこも行きません.
(btw is the kanji for ある, 在る or 有る?)

also when we use のに, must the sentence on the left be in plain form



regarding the particle あいだ, is it sometimes interchangeable with the ながら conjugation, will this 2 sentences be ok:
バスを待っているあいだ新聞を読みます
バスを待ちながら新聞を読みます
(can あいだ be written as 間 when its used in the sentence above?)

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by pacerier

　anyway i was wondering when we use から to join 2 sentences, must the sentence on the left of から be in plain form.

like is this allowed: 試験がありますからどこも行きません, or do i have to use this 試験があるからどこも行きません.
(btw is the kanji for ある, 在る or 有る?)

試験がありますからどこも行きません is ok but it's borderline. This is because から sounds too casual to go with あります and 行きません. Picky readers (as myself) would say that it would sound better if you replaced から by ので. If you MUST use から, it would sound best if you said 試験があるからどこへも行かない。

also when we use のに, must the sentence on the left be in plain form

I would say yes for the same reason as above, the balance.

regarding the particle あいだ, is it sometimes interchangeable with the ながら conjugation, will this 2 sentences be ok:
バスを待っているあいだ新聞を読みます
バスを待ちながら新聞を読みます
(can あいだ be written as 間 when its used in the sentence above?)

間　is not a particle. It's a noun.

Can't say they are interchangeable becasuae as you can see in your own sentences (which are both correct), you had to change the verb forms. Besides, ながら is a particle. You won't ever see a noun and a particle being interchangeable.

Yes, あいだ is written 間 in your sentence.

EDIT: Forgot to say that good writers do not write ある using a kanji.