some questions on numbers and particles

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by pacerier

ok i'll write からだ as 身体 too

Good. Even though it's true that so many Japanese use 体 just because it's easier to write, better writers seldom use it as it CAN have the nuance of "flesh".

oh it doesn't, i was attempting to form a sentence. From TaeKim's guide he had this sentence: 先生だと、きっと年上なんじゃないですか. I was wondering if this is a natural way to speak, if the sentence ends with a question should we use と, or would 「たら」 be more appropriate?

That use of と is ”acceptable” in the sense that it is actually used by some native speakers. If you asked me, however, if it was the best way to say it, I'd answer negatively with confidence. The better speakers would use なら or でしたら, and more casually だったら. TaeKim is a good website, but Kim isn't a native speaker as s/he admits somewhere on the site.

is there an exception to the rule "B happens as a natural result of A" if B is いけない/だめ/ならない? e.g. can i use これを食べないとだめだ to mean "you must eat"

これを食べないとだめだ is very natural as a casual phrase. That's something we would say at a restaurant where we try to persuade a foreign tourist to try raw chicken, not in a serious way but sort of jokingly. "Be cool and just try one little piece, man! "

as for いけない/だめ/ならない, is it the case that ならない is generally more for things that apply to more than one person like rules and policies. If it is, will it be true to say that いけない sounds stronger (and fiercer) than ならない. For example, will (1) sound stronger (more authoritative) than (2):
(1) 夜、遅くまで電話してはいけない
(2) 夜、遅くまで電話してはならない

No, it has nothing to do with rules, and いけない doesn't at all sound fiercer than ならない. It's just that ならない sounds maturer than いけない. Small kids use いけない heavily, meaning that if you use it often, you will look also like a kid.

[pacerier]

yepp i think TaeKim is a Korean if i'm not wrong.

btw, if i use [V]ては(いけない/だめ/ならない), does it sound stronger compared to using conditionals to express "you must do X"? e.g.
(1) 夜、遅くまで電話してはならない
(2) 夜、遅くまで電話しないとならない
(3) 夜、遅くまで電話しなければならない
can we say that (1) is more authoratitive than (2) and (3)? Also, if the meaning of と does not apply here, what will be the difference in naunce between (2) and (3).


Also can たら conditional be used in this way: 夜、遅くまで電話したらならない


As for 「ば」 conditional and 「たら」 conditional, is it true that 「ば」 focuses more on the left part of the sentence, whereas 「たら」 emphasises more on the right part of the sentence?

[pacerier]

Heys all again, sry for another question, i've read somewhere that the particle から when used to mean “lowest extents: prices, business hours” can be replaced with より. I was wondering if this is a common practice i.e. will this sound weird:
我々は7時より営業して居ります。

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by pacerier

if i use [V]ては(いけない/だめ/ならない), does it sound stronger compared to using conditionals to express "you must do X"? e.g.

I'm not understanding your question, to be honest.

(1) 夜、遅くまで電話してはならない
(2) 夜、遅くまで電話しないとならない
(3) 夜、遅くまで電話しなければならない
can we say that (1) is more authoratitive than (2) and (3)?

That's hard to answer when the sentences don't even mean the same and one of them (2) makes no sense. (1) and (3) have the same in the degree of authority.

Also, if the meaning of と does not apply here, what will be the difference in naunce between (2) and (3).

Again, we don't say (2), so it's impossible to talk about the difference in nuance. I don't know what (2) means.

Also can たら conditional be used in this way: 夜、遅くまで電話したらならない

Nope. That will be しては.　　Seriously, where are you getting these incorrect phrases?

As for 「ば」 conditional and 「たら」 conditional, is it true that 「ば」 focuses more on the left part of the sentence, whereas 「たら」 emphasises more on the right part of the sentence?

Not really. However, this is possible in speaking, if not in writing, because in speaking, you can stress any word you want and as much as you want. In writing, you never know which word the reader will give the emphasis.

Originally Posted by pacerier

Heys all again, sry for another question, i've read somewhere that the particle から when used to mean “lowest extents: prices, business hours” can be replaced with より. I was wondering if this is a common practice i.e. will this sound weird:
我々は7時より営業して居ります。

That is a very common practice. 　から sounds less formal than より.

But your sentence sounds weird for two reasons:
1. We don't address ourselves 我々to our customers.
2. Good writers don't write おります using a kanji.

Just say 7時より営業しております or 7時より営業いたします.

[pacerier]

1. We don't address ourselves 我々to our customers.
2. Good writers don't write おります using a kanji.

hey thanks i'll keep that in mind =)

Actually i was trying to figure out why are there so many ways to say Must. the guide told me that there are 9 ways to say Must (e.g. must eat):
1. 食べなくては駄目
2. 食べなくてはいけない (食べなくてはいけません)
3. 食べなくてはならない (食べなくてはなりません)
4. 食べないと駄目
5. 食べないといけない (食べないといけません)
6. 食べないとならない (食べないとなりません)
7. 食べなければ駄目
8. 食べなければいけない (食べなければいけません)
9. 食べなければならない (食べなけれなりません)

I was wondering what may be the difference between these, and/or which is more suitable for writing and talking to boss / talking to strangers / talking to friends / talking to younger siblings / talking to pet

also, i've realised (i think) that we couldn't do this:
食べなかったら駄目
食べなかったらいけない
食べなかったらならない
but why is it that these 3 are not allowed

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by pacerier

　Actually i was trying to figure out why are there so many ways to say Must. the guide told me that there are 9 ways to say Must (e.g. must eat):

Asking the wrong "why" questions will only slow down your studies.

Why do you even seem surprized? Even a non-English-speaker like myself can think of the following in English:

Must, should, have to, have got to, had better, need to, it's necessary to, to be supposed to, ought to, to be required to, etc. That's already 10 and I'm sure you can add more to the list.

1. 食べなくては駄目 Parent/teacher to kid. Remember ダメ is always casual.
2. 食べなくてはいけない (食べなくてはいけません) Normal, bookish and lifeless.
3. 食べなくてはならない (食べなくてはなりません) Widely used. Average "politeness".
4. 食べないと駄目 Very casual. Adult to kid. Local to foreign tourist. (Remember the raw chiken talk I did a few days ago?)
5. 食べないといけない (食べないといけません) Normal. Average politeness.
6. 食べないとならない (食べないとなりません) <-- Better speakers don't say these! Actually, even average ones won't say them.
7. 食べなければ駄目 Condescending. Parent to kid.
8. 食べなければいけない (食べなければいけません) Average in every way.
9. 食べなければならない (食べなけれなりません) Same as above.

I was wondering what may be the difference between these, and/or which is more suitable for writing and talking to boss / talking to strangers / talking to friends / talking to younger siblings / talking to pet

Forget the boss. When will you ever say to your boss that he must eat something? You can't cram all the rules beforehand unless you have a photographic memory. Listen and read a lot and find the rules naturally.

also, i've realised (i think) that we couldn't do this:
食べなかったら駄目 Good but very casual.
食べなかったらいけない No good.
食べなかったらならない Horrible.
but why is it that these 3 are not allowed[/quote] Only the first one isn't.

Wrong "why" question again, in my humble opinion. They're wrong because no one says them.

If you want a reason, you're combining the hypothetical past tense with the present tense in the last two phrases. However, I must inform you that I had to look for the reason afterwards. For me to know the last two were wrong, it didn't even take a second. That's Language.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by pacerier

yepp i think TaeKim is a Korean if i'm not wrong.

His name is Korean, but I always assumed he was American because his English is flawless. I think it's an interesting choice he's made to completely obscure his identity other than his name (which may not even be his real name!). There is absolutely no "about the author" page anywhere (in his book, on the original site, on the new site, etc.).

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

His name is Korean, but I always assumed he was American because his English is flawless. I think it's an interesting choice he's made to completely obscure his identity other than his name (which may not even be his real name!). There is absolutely no "about the author" page anywhere (in his book, on the original site, on the new site, etc.).

He's a Korean-American (born in Korea).

He makes a huge mistake in these three lines of self-introduction. See if you can find it. It's at the top of this page: Tae Kim's Blog

「こんにちは！私は大手企業で働いてるエンジニア（今 流行っている言葉ではＳＥ）です。生まれは韓国でアメ リカ育ちだが、今は東京で活躍しています。なのに、実 家は何とメキシコのカンクン！そう。このblogでは、日� �（もしくは海外）で色々なことを経験しながら、自分� �感じたこと、思ったことを伝えたいと思います。」

It was not even the 生まれは韓国でアメリカ育ち part that told me he wasn't a native speaker of Japanese. It's another part where he says something that Japanese-speakers never would.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

He's a Korean-American (born in Korea).

He makes a huge mistake in these three lines of self-introduction. See if you can find it. It's at the top of this page: Tae Kim's Blog

「こんにちは！私は大手企業で働いてるエンジニア（今 流行っている言葉ではＳＥ）です。生まれは韓国でアメ リカ育ちだが、今は東京で活躍しています。なのに、実 家は何とメキシコのカンクン！そう。このblogでは、日� �（もしくは海外）で色々なことを経験しながら、自分� �感じたこと、思ったことを伝えたいと思います。」

It was not even the 生まれは韓国でアメリカ育ち part that told me he wasn't a native speaker of Japanese. It's another part where he says something that Japanese-speakers never would.

He uses 私は in the second sentence. But I'm not entirely sure that qualifies as a "big mistake" because 私は is correct grammar if not native-sounding.

What about mixing です with って in the second sentence?

Also, I never got a chance to learn if Japanese use parentheses and dashes as often as in English, so I'm not sure if that's a clue. I use () exactly the same in both languages, but I'm admittedly no more than an upper-intermediate or lower-advanced speaker.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

He uses 私は in the second sentence. But I'm not entirely sure that qualifies as a "big mistake" because 私は is correct grammar if not native-sounding.

That first-person pronoun there is good. It's a rare case where you sound better using one than without.

What about mixing です with って in the second sentence?

No problem. There's no way you can get rid of that って from 流行ってる or 流行っている, that is unless you use 流行（はやり）の.

Also, I never got a chance to learn if Japanese use parentheses and dashes as often as in English, so I'm not sure if that's a clue. I use () exactly the same in both languages, but I'm admittedly no more than an upper-intermediate or lower-advanced speaker.

There aren't really rules reagrding parentheses. It's ok as long as yo use them in moderation. Dashes, however, are rarely used.

I guess I'm telling the answer now as I don't want to derail from the thread any further.

Kim's use of 活躍しています is what told me he wasn't a native speaker. We just don't say that about ourselves as it's the same thing as praising yourself. You can say it about others, though. The only time you can say it about yourself is when you are clearly joking.