Sites You Should Not Use To Learn Japanese

[DanielSheen]

Yea I I know. Soo much to proof read for 3 people. + fix the Japanese errors and add the missing content.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by BenBullock

Please could you read my message before replying? I said " randomly click a few links from these pages of links, and I'm sure you'll find things which are very similar to 123japanese".

For example, at Jim Breen's page, I find the following dodgy sites (I'm deliberately de-linking them):

www dot omoshiroieigo dot com

That is about the same kind of thing as 123japanese.

Here's another one:

www dot ara-maa dot com

It's almost content free.

And, here's another one:

thejapaneseproject dot com


As it happens I was just writing an email to Jim Breen about some of the broken links there. E.g.

diagrammar dot photonjungle dot com

is now a domain squatter

www dot myjapaneselessons dot com

is a broken site, the Java is just spewing errors.

I think you can understand where my misunderstanding was.

I was under the impression that Jim Breen was basically retired. Is that not true?

[DanielSheen]

Originally Posted by BenBullock

www dot omoshiroieigo dot com

That is about the same kind of thing as 123japanese.

Wow that’s a big insult to my website. That page hardly has any information let alone lessons. My website doesn't just consist of vocabulary there’s a whole lesson page full of EVERYTHING. Verbs, How to congregate them, sentence structure, Particles, Adjectives, everything.

I believe the only flaws are the spelling errors. Lack of kanji and explanation on the stoke order. You people consider Romaji to be the devil. I believe I am going to ad kana to the vocabulary section, because yes, people who are learning these not so common animals should know how to read Japanese. It would be a good tool for those who want to kanji or kana for that "thing". But the lessons, No. Anyone who is learning Japanese isn't going to just jump into learning how to write it before speaking it. Reading it in romaji its the equivalent to being in a learning environment. What I mean is, obviously the website doesn't consist of a person following you around always speaking the language like you would learn as a baby. When your a baby you learn to speak first, then read. Well we can't do the "follow you around and speak" on this website so the only equivalent is reading what you already know how to read.

If you expected every learner to just jump in and learn the kana before learning to speak the language, then a lot of people would stop learning. It doesn't take a week to learn to read. It takes a week to learn the strokes and have them memorized. I know all the hiragana and katakana, but when I pick up a piece of Japanese literature, I read extremely slow, and you have to sound out every bit. That’s because it takes a while to learn to read. In English, my native language, I look at a sign, and you see the whole word, you don't have to sound out "waaalllllmaaarrrrttt" no. you don't even have to read over every letter.

People take a few months to learn how to read, just like you take a few months to know how to read in your own native language. My baby brother who is 6 knows all the alphabet and how to write them, but can he read. No. Barely.

Besides all that, My lessons will remain in romaji because anyone who is reading through the lessons, usually doesn't know how to read fluently in Japanese, otherwise why would they want to read "how to say hello" "how to congregate a verb" someone who is fluent in reading, usually understands what they are reading. so why would they go to the lessons. My lessons are not for advanced students.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by DanielSheen

If you expected every learner to just jump in and learn the kana before learning to speak the language, then a lot of people would stop learning. It doesn't take a week to learn to read. It takes a week to learn the strokes and have them memorized. I know all the hiragana and katakana, but when I pick up a piece of Japanese literature, I read extremely slow, and you have to sound out every bit. That’s because it takes a while to learn to read.

You've basically made our argument for us. You get better at reading by reading, and to motivate people to read you need to tell them "if you want to learn more than 'hello'," you must know how to read."

If they quit, they never would have gotten skilled in the first place. Learning Japanese is really, really hard. If they can't stick it out two weeks to learn kana, they won't stick it out anyway. I don't know anyone skilled in Japanese who didn't know how to read it within the first couple weeks of studies.

I knew hiragana before I knew anything but the basic greetings. I suspect MMM and Nyororin and delacroix are similar.

I've seen a lot of your site. Most of what is taught should be taught after kana. This is the way it is. To say otherwise is to disagree with PhDs from tons of countries whose field of study is Japanese pedagogy. Research supports what we say. Experience supports what we say.

You're not disagreeing with us. You're disagreeing with an army of educators and hundreds of years of experience. Heck, thousands of years of combined experience.

Regardless, I think things are getting out of hand. It's very silly to teach almost any vocab word in romaji because no one will need the romaji who ought to be learning the word. But we've already discussed that.

But I'm telling you: You are indefensibly wrong on the romaji issue. The facts are just not with you.

(Obviously there is an exception if you're teaching survival Japanese to tourists.)

[DanielSheen]

I learned basic sentances and vocabulary before I even started to learn how to write Japanese. I still am focusing more on speaking than writing. Thats the way you are taught when you are a child. You don't teach a child to write a language as they are learning to speak it. Learning to read is not an easy task.

I don't belive that saying If you don't learn to speak as you read you will never or hardly know how to read. Reading is a different thing than learning to speak a language. Again, It takes more than 2 weeks for someone to know how to read. Unless you are some kind of super child. Tell me one child who learned the alphabet and suddenly knew how to read after two weeks. My brother, and everyone in his class, every kid I know of, even when I, and my friend were in kindergarden and learning to write. We learned the alphabet, but couldn't use it, because it take a few months to learn how to read.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by DanielSheen

I learned basic sentances and vocabulary before I even started to learn how to write Japanese. I still am focusing more on speaking than writing. Thats the way you are taught when you are a child. You don't teach a child to write a language as they are learning to speak it. Learning to read is not an easy task.

I don't belive that saying If you don't learn to speak as you read you will never or hardly know how to read. Reading is a different thing than learning to speak a language. Again, It takes more than 2 weeks for someone to know how to read. Unless you are some kind of super child. Tell me one child who learned the alphabet and suddenly knew how to read after two weeks. My brother, and everyone in his class, every kid I know of, even when I, and my friend were in kindergarden and learning to write. We learned the alphabet, but couldn't use it, because it take a few months to learn how to read.

Let me just say first that I hope we can keep the conversation at a respectable level of discourse. I think it is fascinating topic, but I realize we are talking about people's personal works here, so let's make sure not to make it, or take it, personally.

I started learning hiragana on day 1 or 2 of my Japanese study. I can't remember how many weeks it took to get it down, but once it was down we dropped the romaji like a hot potato.

I think that is a good philosophy to go by if you are learning for any sort of long-term goal.

Romaji is not good for learning pronunciation, and since not all sounds in Japanese exist in English, using the alphabet to write them impedes learning. Reading how to speak is like reading how to play a musical instrument. Words on a page cannot completely convey the correct and proper ways to communicate.

For example:

U is pronounced like "oo" like in "put".

You are from Canada, right? Because this is not correct for American English speakers. う is more "oo" in moose (for me) but different English dialects will have different pronunciations. Therefore is is better to learn the proper pronunciation of う and all the others from proper sources.

[DanielSheen]

Originally Posted by MMM

Let me just say first that I hope we can keep the conversation at a respectable level of discourse. I think it is fascinating topic, but I realize we are talking about people's personal works here, so let's make sure not to make it, or take it, personally.

I started learning hiragana on day 1 or 2 of my Japanese study. I can't remember how many weeks it took to get it down, but once it was down we dropped the romaji like a hot potato.

I think that is a good philosophy to go by if you are learning for any sort of long-term goal.

Romaji is not good for learning pronunciation, and since not all sounds in Japanese exist in English, using the alphabet to write them impedes learning. Reading how to speak is like reading how to play a musical instrument. Words on a page cannot completely convey the correct and proper ways to communicate.

For example:

U is pronounced like "oo" like in "put".

You are from Canada, right? Because this is not correct for American English speakers. う is more "oo" in moose (for me) but different English dialects will have different pronunciations. Therefore is is better to learn the proper pronunciation of う and all the others from proper sources.

I am from Canada. Its impossible to teach pronounciation from reading a paper DEFINATELY. We are making a instructional video to replace that section to avoid the problems with pronouncing. I belive thought once someone knows the proper pronounciation of something, they can read it properly. Romaji or Kana, same thing, its both a little image, once you know how to pronoucnce it then you know how to. You can't learn to pronounce by looking at a word thought, which is why we are making a video for that section. I belive once that is up, then there wont be much confusion.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by DanielSheen

I am from Canada. Its impossible to teach pronounciation from reading a paper DEFINATELY. We are making a instructional video to replace that section to avoid the problems with pronouncing. I belive thought once someone knows the proper pronounciation of something, they can read it properly. Romaji or Kana, same thing, its both a little image, once you know how to pronoucnce it then you know how to. You can't learn to pronounce by looking at a word thought, which is why we are making a video for that section. I belive once that is up, then there wont be much confusion.

My response would be if you are going to learn pronunciation by (relearning) romaji, you are better serving yourself by simply learning hiragana.

Even with proper pronunciation, romaji is more difficult to read than hiragana. Anyone who doesn't think so hasn't mastered kana.

Japanese has a beat that is timed out by the characters. Two kana is two beats. Three kana is three beats. This is important when we get to long vowels and small つ. However, that vital point is lost in romaji. You cannot see the "beats" for proper pronunciation, because there is no visible distinction between the kana and they are not all the same length. (Some are one letter, some two, and some three.) In kana there are right there, like notes on a music sheet.

[DanielSheen]

Yea maybe if you didn't have any knowledge of how Japanese is then you would pronounce it wrong. When I look at a word thats in romaji. I dont sound it out like I would in English. I know that Japanese sounds go like "a i u e o, ka ki ku ke ko, and so on". So when I see a word in Japanese, I know what the letters would look like in the correct kana. If your stupid you will start learning a language without knowing the alphabet sounds. I don't really know how to explain what I am trying to say....

[MMM]

Originally Posted by DanielSheen

Yea maybe if you didn't have any knowledge of how Japanese is then you would pronounce it wrong. When I look at a word thats in romaji. I dont sound it out like I would in English. I know that Japanese sounds go like "a i u e o, ka ki ku ke ko, and so on". So when I see a word in Japanese, I know what the letters would look like in the correct kana. If your stupid you will start learning a language without knowing the alphabet sounds. I don't really know how to explain what I am trying to say....

I am saying if you are going to take the time to learn proper pronunciation, why would you NOT learn the kana?

Again, it is easier to read kana than it is romaji. Only someone who doesn't read kana would say that isn't true.

Romaji is a crutch, and anyone who has had a broken ankle will tell you that you can't use the crutch forever. If you don't learn to walk without it, your ankle will never get stronger.