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03-23-2010, 05:04 AM
I read a LOT. In both Japanese and in English.
I cannot imagine trying to muck through kana only text... Nor can I imagine trying to muck through English devoid of spaces, capitalization, and punctuation. justtrytorelaxandreadthroughasentencelikethiswithoutanyhintstowhereanything beginsandsendswithproperpunctuationthereisntmuchofaproblemevenwhenthelevela ndcomplexityofthesubjectmatterincreasesyesiamsurethateveryonewillbeabletore adthisjustasiamsurethatanyonecouldreadajapanesesentencewrittenonlyinkanabut itcertainlyisnteasyanditcertainlyisntsmoothgoingevenastheonewhotypedthisupr eadingoverittocheckfrotyposispainfulworkandthisisenglishjapaneselackingkanj iwouldbeevenmoreofapainasitreliesonthecharactersmuchmoretoconverymeaningeng lishiscompleteaslongasthespellingiscorrect Yeah, lots of fun to read...  The presence of Kanji doesn`t slow down or hinder a reader - it does the opposite. Anything above picture book level is a pain to read without it. Sure, for a Japanese learner who only knows one meaning for one sound pattern it may be easy - especially with words split by spaces - but when there are many possible meanings and when you can`t be sure even where one word ends and another begins... I would HATE to read anything in all kana - let alone something with real substance. こうかかれてるほうがよみやすいとおもってるなんて･ ･･わたしにはりかいできない。かいわじゃたしかにか んじがつかわれることはないけど、そのかわりにいろん なヒント（カタカナはまだつかってもいいよね？）があ ったり、ふめいなてんがあればすぐにきくことができる 。よんでるときはかんぜんにいっぽうてきでめのまえに かかれてるものからすべてのじょうほうをとりだすしか ない。そとからみて「めんどうくさいから」ってりゆう でどこかのげんごをかえたいなんてばかげてるとおもう 。 No fun reading that either. It was a total pain to type out, and just like with the no punctuation English it felt so strange and frustrating that I`m sure I made a number of mistakes that it is too much of a pain to read through to find. ETA; This makes me think of the quizzes they occasionally have on TV asking people to guess what a sentence really means... The most recent one I saw was "You get a message on your phone from a friend - what is she talking about?!" きのうのかんそうきかして 
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03-23-2010, 05:14 AM
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Hell, you might be able to adapt hangul to Japanese. We know Hangul works. But like has been said already 1. this is not going to happen; 2. there are advantages to kanji; 3. getting rid of kanji would be a response to economic and population trends, not to make the language easier for Japanese people See Basic English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Special English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for examples of what could be done to make Japanese more accessible to immigrants (assuming Japan eventually opens up its doors to immigrants in wider numbers due to economic pressure) Now I'm not an expert, but my understanding based on a couple semesters of Japanese sociology and demography is that there are significant population problems in Japan due to its remarkably low birthrate, and if Japanese guys and girls don't start popping them out, they're going to need a foreign source of labor to support its social programs. Perhaps take in immigrants on worker visas that are good for a decade or five years or something, but deny them social welfare program benefits, to increase what pays out to citizens without having temporary immigrants being a drain. But I only have a semester of immigration studies under my belt, so I'm a dilettante. 
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03-23-2010, 05:26 AM
The topic of immigration pops up a LOT in the Kanji discussion... But why? Is Kanji REALLY stopping people from coming to Japan? Does the difficulty of English stop people from immigrating to the US or the UK?
It`s policy, NOT language that governs this. The examples of Basic English and Simplified English are fine examples, but I don`t see them in any type of usage that would actually influence immigration. And if they are good examples of making a language more accessible - then the NHK programming for foreigners using a set of so many simple grammatical patterns and a limited vocabulary should also be considered. The thing is, there tend to be two sets of foreigner groups in Japan. Those who want to and do learn the language, and those that don`t care to and do not. Those who don`t care to and don`t feel the desire to are not going to benefit from any immigrant aimed simplification - and those that want to and do learn the language will only get a small advantage in the very early stages of learning. Natives aren`t going to make the switch, so any desire to do business with the rest of the country will necessitate proficiency in "native Japanese".
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03-23-2010, 11:45 AM
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Look at the country I live in, we are very very relax with our immigration law, in fact, Canada is known to have the most diversified culture. A lot of immigrants in this country doesn't speak a word of English at all for the same reason - its too difficult for them. We don't just go and abolish the use of English.........
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03-23-2010, 08:16 PM
I don't see how abolishing Kanji would attract foreigners anyways. Either you are going to move to Japan for business opportunities and not bother to learn Japanese (which many businessmen do) or you are going to move to Japan because you enjoy the country and want to live there, in which case you will probably try and learn Japanese. I doubt anyone thinks they are going to learn Japanese and then quits because Kanji is too difficult and then decides not to move to Japan.
Sane people stop learning Japanese because particles make no sense, not Kanji.
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03-23-2010, 08:44 PM
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Second, no one is suggesting that people will not immigrate because they didn't learn Japanese. I'm suggesting people will not integrate if Japanese literacy is too unattainable. And I think the difference between Muslims in France versus in the US is a good illustration of how vitally important integration is to social stability. Again, I'm not telling Japan how to run its economy and immigration affairs. I'm playing Devil's Advocate with the little bit of demography I know.
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03-23-2010, 10:45 PM
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03-23-2010, 11:44 PM
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03-23-2010, 11:45 PM
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I would expect Japan to allow more laborers into the country on a temporary worker visa basis. There would be no "second generation." But yes, if there were a second generation, then you are completely correct.
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