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03-02-2011, 06:51 AM
Thank you, both of you. So is it safe to say that the 折 does not come after the thing that is a good opportunity, but it's more coming after some event, and is followed by the thing that should be done at that event's time?
So basically 折 functions just like 時, right? Is there any difference? The book talks about one being あるいい機会, but then I can't figure out how that fits in with sentence 2: 先月北海道に行った折、偶然昔の友達に会った。 because this was not an event where a person did something on purpose. It was an accidental meeting. I'm probably just really confusing myself. Let me restate my problem: Here is what I understand: 折 is similar to 時 Here is what I don't understand: How is 折 different from 時? Thank you both. 
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03-02-2011, 08:25 AM
Ｈｉ．
I think 時 and 折 means the same thing, just collocations and usages, are different. 1. このことは今度お目にかかった（ ）に詳しくお話しい たし ます。 Both 時 and 折 are OK. 2. 先月北海道に行った( ) 、偶然昔の友達に会った。 Both 時 and 折 are OK. 3. 何かの( )にわたしのことを思い出したら手紙をください ね。 Both 時 and 折 are OK. I think 折 seems a little better, because it is a little more idiomatic. Though 時 is not wrong here. 4. 寒さ厳しい( )から、くれぐれもお体を大切にしてくださ い。 Only 折 is available, because of the collocation. 寒さ厳しい折から＝寒さ厳しい折であるから＝because it is very cold season 寒さ厳しい時から=from the time it was cold から of 折から means "because" から of 時から means "from". So if you change 折から to 時から, the meaning becomes different. 5. ( ) に触れて Only 折 is available, because it is an idiom. 折にふれて＝機会あるごとに 6. ( )には、こっちにも顔をだしてくださいよ。 Only 時 is available, which means "from time to time" "on occasions". If you choose 折, it doesn't make sense. 7.そういう話は、（ ）と場所を選んで やってくれな� ��か？ Only 時 is correct. If you choose 折, it doesn't make sense. When you talking about TPO, ”時” is the proper Japanese equivalent for "time", not "折". etc, etc. I think 時 is much frequently used in Japanese than 折. 折 is used in some special context, just occasionally, so you have to learn the context one by one.
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03-02-2011, 10:31 PM
Thank you very much for the sample sentences. I think I understand now.
I have a new question. It's from the same chapter on 時点・場面. I'm reading about the usage of 〜にあって. The book says: Quote:
I get that にあって is like で／に just like において means, but I don't understand the explanatory sentence. "A special circumstance/matter like ~ placed in yourself" is definitely not a correct reading of that sentence. Is it maybe "A special circumstance at the heart of a matter"? Like ~にあって identifies something that is particularly the cause of something? Given the sample sentences the book gives, I suspect this is true: 今、Ａ国は経済成長期にあって、人々の表情も生き生き としている。 Here, the long period of economic growth is particularly a cause of people's expressions being lively/happy. 数学は高度情報社会にあって、必要な教養となっている 。 Here, a mathematics education is particularly important in an advanced information society. 「この非常時にあって、あなたはどうしてそんなに平気 でいられるのですか。」 I can understand this sentence as well. But now that I've gotten through the sentences, I really don't know what is so special about にあって. I understand it is very similar to に／で meaning "at" or "by" or "in" or whatever, but I can't understand what the book is trying to explain about what is so special about にあって. The book says that whole thing about 〜のような特別な事態、状況に身をおいて」と言いたい 時に使う but this sentence just does not make any sense to me! If I ignore this and just read the sentences, I understand them easily: 1. Now, in A-country, because of the sustained economic growth, people's facial expressions are so lively. 2. It is necessary to have a mathematics education in an advanced information society. 3. At this time of emergency, how are you so fine/OK? Thank you!
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03-02-2011, 11:06 PM
Hi. Both have the same meaning.
The difference would be something rhetorical! For example, 1.I'm in danger. 2. I'm in the situation which is risky. 3. I'm in the situation where one mistake would be fatal. 4. I am just being midst the situation which is dangerous. Sorry for my poor non-native English, but all 4 sentence means the same thing. 1 is the most simple and direct. 4 is probably the most redundant. But sometimes, in adult talk, one tends to use something like No.4. Because he wants to pretend to be "adult", "highly-educated", and he might choose "lofty" "more-complex-structured" "more-high-level" vocabulary. You know? You're now learning advanced vocabulary, which has easier alternatives like に instead of にあって, 折 instead of 時. They are used in official speech, formal-writings, etc. They are used in order to prove that your education level is high enough, or that you're not childish. These kinds vocabulary is not necessary in international basic communications. But if you want to talk just like natives, and if you are an adult, it is necessary to become a more sophisticated Japanese speaker/writer. On the other hand, those vocabulary has much risks, unless the usage/collocation is used properly. Just like a child pretend to be "an adult", and speak like "an adult", yet it sounds weird because he can't use the vocabulary in proper situation. It seems funny.
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03-02-2011, 11:19 PM
「〜のような特別な事態、状況に身をおいて」と言いた い時に使う。
This sentence means "It is used when wanting to say 'finding itself in a particular state or situation'." As you stasted, the phrase is used to describe what phenomenon may occur within another larger and more general phenomenon. In other words, it is used to describe a cause and effect. There is not anything so special about the phrase ～～にあって. I surmise that your book introduces it because it is not a phrase many Japanese-learners are able to use actively. Even among native speakers, it is not something many people use on a daily basis. You will find it quite often in more formal speech, though. The reason that you find that explanatory sentence difficult would be the very fact that the phrase itself is simple. If you tried to explain the English word "be", you could easily end up using big words, could you not?
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03-03-2011, 12:03 AM
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At least my reading. My writing still has a ways to go, and one of these days I'll decide I'm finally brave enough to dip my toes back into the Japanese Chat thread!
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03-03-2011, 12:05 AM
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This was also the last hiccup in my work on the next section, so once I clean up the translation a bit with what you two have said, I'll post the next thread for the learners to see.
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03-04-2011, 12:26 AM
Another question! When using the structure 〜が早いか to mean "as soon as" or "the second ~ occurs" I can say, like, 鳴るが早いか or 鳴ったが早いか.
What is the difference? I have a sample sentence 小田先生はチャイムが鳴るが早いか、教室に入って来ま す。 If I changed it to 鳴ったが早いか, how does the meaning change? Or is it that I have to match the tense of 鳴る with the 来ます at the end? それに「や」と「や否や」はどう違いますか。例えば「 部屋に入ったや（否や）」という文に。
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03-04-2011, 02:24 AM
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03-04-2011, 10:37 PM
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