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03-06-2011, 08:04 PM
New Question. The next lesson I'm working on includes a section on 〜かたがた. All the sample sentences are confusing for me, although the explanation of the grammar makes sense to me. Also, I can't find but one entry in ALC/Eijiro that uses かたがた, so that's not much help, either.
「２つの目的をもたせて、あることをする」と言う時の 表現 Expression used when saying there are two goals, and one action [to accomplish both] is taken. 1. 最近ご無沙汰をしているので、卒業のあいさつかたがた 保証人のうちを訪ねた。 We haven't seen each other of late, so I dropped in on him as a graduation greeting and to get a reference. ???????? 2. ご無沙汰のお詫びかたがた、近況報告に先生をお訪ねし た。 It had been a while, so I dropped in on the professor to apologize and to tell him some recent goings-on. 3. 彼がけがをしたということを聞いたので、お見舞いかた がた、彼のうちを訪ねた。 Because I heard he had gotten injured, I dropped in on him to visit him in the hospital and where is the second goal in this sentence???. Also, I guess the のうち is throwing me off, too. What in the world is its function? Is it used in high-level speech to soften something like 彼 into 彼のうち? That's my best guess. 誰か上記の翻訳を校閲していただけないでしょうか。ま たは「かたがた」という表現を説明してくださいません か。 Edit I said 上書 instead of 上記 originally. Mistake!  
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03-06-2011, 11:34 PM
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03-07-2011, 12:03 AM
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03-07-2011, 02:10 AM
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It it you or the book that said what is said in the English above? It is not very accurate and I wonder if that is why you are confused. The 「２つの目的をもたせて」 was not translated correctly. It doesn't say "saying there are two goals". You are not going to always see two goals expressed in example sentences using かたがた. The main goal/purpose will be expressly mentioned, followed directly by かたがた, but the second (or other) goal(s)/purpose(s) may not. Those are merely implied when not mentioned. Just thought to tell you this quickly.
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03-07-2011, 02:33 AM
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As for the translation point, I think the confusion here is a product of my loose translation (the English sentence is my translation and the Japanese is from the book). I translated 「２つの目的をもたせて」 as "there are two goals" and the "saying" came from the 言う later on in the sentence. I guess I should have translated ２つの目的をもたせて as "have two goals" instead of "there are two goals" to be technically correct, but I didn't think that this sloppy translation could cause any confusion when I asked for help. My literal translation of that "description" would be: Expression for times when you say "to have two goals, and do some [one] action." I did not know that the second goal could be merely implied.
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03-07-2011, 04:40 AM
I'm back. Had I been your book's author, I would have explained the use of 「かたがた」 like this:
「（ Ａ ）かたがた（ Ｘする ）。」 You are performing Action X for the main purpose of A. Though A may be the most important goal, it is likely that you will also do B and perhaps C and D. This is so because Action X will give you an opportunity to do more than just one thing. Suppose you have a conference to attend in L.A., which will give you a chance to see a few old friends in San Diego after the conference. You can say: 「会議への出席かたがた南カリフォルニアに行ってきま す。」 If you want to mention the reunion part, you can add a new sentence to this. If you don't mind forming a long sentence, you can mention both goals within one sentence as well, The long sentence will be like: 「会議への出席かたがた、友人と再会するためにも南カ リフォルニアに行ってきます。」, which is sort of like your example sentence #2 above. Sentence #1 also needs correction. 保証人 is a guarantor that you need in order to attend a school or work for a company.
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03-07-2011, 05:40 AM
Thank you very much for the explanation. Before posting this lesson, I'm going to fix up the かたがた section with your comments to better explain its usage. You explained it much better! I was left feeling like both actions needed to be mentioned after just reading the book.
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Not knowing what else it could be (but being pretty sure the friend didn't also happen to be an insurance agent), I translated it as "reference." "Guarantor" works with a culture note about what it's for. The only time I've ever encountered the word "guarantor" in English is when dealing with legal issues arising out of financing/debt obligations/loans. Thanks!
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03-07-2011, 08:58 PM
次の「限定」という課についての質問がありますが...
まず、「に限り」と「に限って」はどう違いますか。 次に、『信頼や特別な期待をもって話題にし、「その人 だけは好ましくないことはしないはずだ」と推量する時 に使う。』は英語でなんと言いますか。Used when guessing, with a topic that contains a special expectation or belief, "Only to that person must that unwanted thing not occur"は？その英語も理解できません。やはりへたなほん やくでしょう。 お教えになってください。
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03-07-2011, 09:25 PM
Can I borrow this thread a minute? I will definitely refer back once I learn the alphabet
I have a question though, the hiragana chart I'm using has 2 different ways to write "ji" and "zu" I'm confused why (although I suppose it will be evident once I start more with words Thanks
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03-07-2011, 09:53 PM
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For the same reason that, in English, the "X" sound can also be written "KS" and the "Q" sound can be written "KW": purely historical reasons. Also, in some areas of Japan that don't speak standard Japanese, the pronunciation is different. Just keep this in mind: 1. ず／じ are used way more frequently than づ／ぢ. The latter is almost exclusively used when you are "softening" a つ／ち sound. Other than that, it's almost always ず／じ. If you have to guess, use ず／じ. But you have to just memorize when to use which.
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