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KyleGoetz (Offline)
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04-23-2010, 02:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sashimister View Post
This is true. If OP is learning the standard Japanese, which he should be, there is absolutely no difference in pronunciation between ず and づ. The same rule applies to Tokyo dialect (as OP appears to live in Tokyo.)

Since over 95% of us live in the yellow and green areas on that map, this fact about the pronunciation should not be taken lightly. If you pronounce ず and づ differently, you will sound strange to most Japanese. In fact, I, as a native speaker, don't even know how to pronounce those two syllables differently.
I actually used to pronounce them differently until I found out otherwise.

If OP is wondering, it's also useful to learn about が, which also has varying pronunciations depending on whom you are talking to. Ka (kana) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The phonetic value of the modified character is [ɡa] in initial positions, and varying between [ŋa] and [ɣa] in the middle of words.
Here's a bit more about it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
However, /ɡ/ is further complicated by its variant realization as a velar nasal [ŋ]. Standard Japanese speakers can be categorized into 3 groups (A, B, C), which will be explained below. If a speaker pronounces a given word consistently with the allophone [ŋ] (i.e. a B-speaker), that speaker will never have [ɣ] as an allophone in that same word. If a speaker varies between [ŋ] and [ɡ] (i.e. an A-speaker) or is generally consistent in using [ɡ], then the velar fricative [ɣ] is always another possible allophone in fast speech.

/ɡ/ may be weakened to nasal [ŋ] when it occurs within words — this includes not only between vowels but also between a vowel and a consonant. There is a fair amount of variation between speakers, however. Some, such as Vance (1987), have suggested that the variation follows social class; others, such as Akamatsu (1997), suggest that the variation follows age and geographic location. The generalized situation is as follows.

At the beginning of words:
all present-day standard Japanese speakers generally use the stop [ɡ] at the beginning of words: /ɡaijuu/ → [ɡaiju͍u͍] gaiyū 外遊 'overseas trip' (but not *[ŋaiju͍u͍])

In the middle of simple words (i.e. non-compounds):
A. majority of speakers uses either [ŋ] or [ɡ] in free variation: /kaɡu/ → [kaŋu͍] or [kaɡu͍] kagu 家具 'furniture'
B. minority of speakers consistently uses [ŋ]: /kaɡu/ → [kaŋu͍] (but not *[kaɡu͍])
C. smaller minority of speakers in Kantō consistently uses [ɡ]:[2] /kaɡu/ → [kaɡu͍] (but not *[kaŋu͍])

In the middle of compound words morpheme-initially:
B-speakers mentioned directly above consistently use [ɡ].

So, for some speakers the following two words are a minimal pair while for others they are homophonous:
sengo 1,005 (せんご) 'one thousand five' = [seŋɡo] for B-speakers
sengo 戦後 (せんこ゜) 'postwar' = [seŋŋo] for B-speakers[3]

To summarize using the example of hage はげ 'baldness':
A-speakers: /haɡe/ → [haŋe] or [haɡe] or [haɣe]
B-speakers: /haɡe/ → [haŋe]
C-speakers: /haɡe/ → [haɡe] or [haɣe]
I am an A-speaker, but am close to being a B-speaker—there are only a handful of words in which I use /ŋ/ɣ/ and /g/ in free variation. I asked my professor about this once, and she talked to me a bit about "news anchor Japanese" and such.

What she revealed to me is that she's a C-speaker—she actually has difficulty mimicking the news anchor /ŋ/ sound.
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chryuop (Offline)
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04-23-2010, 02:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sashimister View Post
This is true. If OP is learning the standard Japanese, which he should be, there is absolutely no difference in pronunciation between ず and づ. The same rule applies to Tokyo dialect (as OP appears to live in Tokyo.)

Since over 95% of us live in the yellow and green areas on that map, this fact about the pronunciation should not be taken lightly. If you pronounce ず and づ differently, you will sound strange to most Japanese. In fact, I, as a native speaker, don't even know how to pronounce those two syllables differently.
I getting pretty puzzled since me too have several textbooks and all of them say clearly there no difference in pronunciation.
Your explanation was really great.


降り注ぐ雨 マジで冷てぇ
暗闇の中 歩くしかねぇ
everything’s gonna be okay 恐れることねぇ
辛い時こそ胸を張れ
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