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05-27-2010, 11:10 PM
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I'm not saying that beginners should be exposed to Kanji, but the argument that second-language learners should be comparable to first graders who learn it as their native language is a bit silly. You're smart Kyle, so I'm sure you know how we learn languages as a child is different from how we learn as an adult. Those first graders who learn kanji also see said kanji everywhere and start to use them on a daily basis. This isn't the case for learners of Japanese as a second language (with the exception of maybe Chinese speakers, but of course that's not entirely the same reading  ). I do think beginners should be exposed to Kanji and encouraged to use them, though.
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05-28-2010, 12:14 AM
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05-28-2010, 01:47 AM
Kyle, with all due respect, those first graders are 5 and 6 years old. I think saying something like "'nuff said" after a statement like that only helps what I'm trying to say when you really get down to it. That's 5-6 years of constantly being exposed to the Japanese language. That's the kind of exposure you still won't obtain even if you've studied the langauge in your own country for many many years. To say that someone should learn kanji in their second year of studying, in my opinion, is an unrealistic expectation and the time required to memorize the kanji would be much better spent elsewhere. Forcing first/second year learnings of Japanese learners to learn kanji, you are putting them at a faster pace than actual Japanese learners and I can't comprehend the logic in that. This is why people who learn languages for like 10 years still can't come close to a native 10 year old's language ability.
This goes with the idea that teachers feel the need to replicate their own education when teaching a language. Just because 1st grade was your first year in school and you were learning kanji doesn't necessarily mean that it would be beneficial for first grade learners of Japanese (with a different L1) to be learning kanji. I think it would be better to think of Japanese as a second language students to be thought of as babies in terms of Japanese. I know that word baby has a negative connotation and I don't mean it that way. I mean that the beginning should focus more on listening and observing rather than what kids with 5 years of listening and observing under their belt are expected to do. Most people who study Japanese get fed up with it very early on. The beginning is fun and you get to laugh at all the new sounds and at the weird phrasing of the English translations for vocabulary. After all that has worn off and you go into your second year and are expected to memorize kanji (on top of hiragana and katakana) it just seems useless. It's like there's a whole year dedicated to learning how to write letters. Letters are boring and are just like a fake langauge anyways. They are things that would be better focused on after there is a foundation of spoken langauge. Studying letters first leads to comparing Japanese letters (characters) to English ones, thus the brain applise English reading rules to Japanese words slowing down the learning process. Another side effect is the completely boring task of memorization of abstract characters. I think most people who learn a langauge want to learn how to speak it-- there are some people who genuinely want to learn it in its written form, and I think they are the exception. In other words, most of us would be better off enjoying communication before we stay up all night worrying about kanji. HOWEVER, exposure to kanji should definately be there as soon as writing is taught. I think there is no harm done with putting furigana on top of kanji to help expose learners to it.
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05-28-2010, 09:17 AM
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Certainly after 5 years of Kanji use, I find it very hard to read a hiragana-only sentence, because it's not clear where words end and certain words I'm more familiar with as Kanji. Just yesterday it took me a couple of tries to read さかなや because it kept coming out as さかーなや and confusing me. I wouldn't have had the same issue with 魚屋。Similarly, Kanji give good hints to unknown words. Suppose you saw うそ written somewhere. You wouldn't have a clue as to it's meaning unless you already knew it, or you might think 'oh, it means lie'. written as 鷽、however, I can instantly see that it's not 'lie' but something else, and given that it has the character for bird in it, I can assume that it's either a sort of bird, or related to birds. Additionally, as adults, we have other difficulties. Despite being child-level in Japanese, you would (I hope) still want to be considered an adult, and sound adult. In japan it's quite acceptable to be kanji-illiterate as a child but as an adult, it's a skill you need. If you arrive with almost fluent speaking skills but no kanji recognition, you are to all intents and purposes, illiterate, and furigana is generally much scarcer than you'd like. And you will be expected to be able to read kanji- not all communication in Japan is verbal; think of all the signs, instructions, information you -read- on a daily basis, just navigating around town. Neglecting a full set of reading skills is like cutting off your foot and then trying to run a race. You will stumble at the starting block. Quote:
You describe a writing system as a 'fake language', which only goes to show that you're utterly ignorant of how to use it correctly. It is not a fake language, it is highly formative in the structure of Japanese, even down to a social level (Non-PC characters, for example). Your attitude suggests both bad learning and bad teaching. Quote:
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05-28-2010, 03:58 PM
I don't think I'm getting my point across... writing is, in a sense, a fake language. I'd like to think of it as a completely different language- if that makes sense. Writing is an interpretation of spoken language, which is the purest form of a language. Another thing, as far as learners of Japanese go... at a high school or college level, as soon as the kanji starts happening, people start dropping out.
I think learning a second language as an adult has more disadvantages than advantages. The mother language gets in the way of the L2 more often than not (especially in languages as different as Japanese and English). It is my opinion that starting from scratch, like a child, would be easier. I have many many friends who are bilingual. They started learning English when they were about 5 years old (although they grew up in America, so they were somewhat immersed in it though their parents did not speak English). Their English is great and their mother language I would assume is passable (although probably lacking in the written department). The examples of how your native langauge gets in the way are almost infinate. Intonation in general seems to get applied incorrectly all the time. Phrases and expressions that are culturally specific... what to say and when. etc etc. I remember someone saying something like "彼はトクベツ” with special emphasis on 特別 as though it would carry over and mean something like "he's 'SPECIAL'" with a nudge and a wink as it would in English. There are other things too... like how people say プリン is pudding, when it is in fact flan (and dictionaries are guilty of this too). Just like how カボチャ is said to mean pumpkin, when it indeed doesn't look like what we call pumpkins. It may be a type of pumpkin (or winter squash or whatever the hell it is), but it's not what we call a pumpkin. Dictionaries are sometimes incorrect or too overly simple in that they make things out to be a simple math equation of a=b... even though there are many exceptions. This is where spoken language comes in to play. I think rather than relying on someone elses perception of a language (as would be the case when referring to a dictionary or looking for a quick translation of something) it's more beneficial in the long run (albiet a slower path) to use your eyes and understand what a word means to you. I got to a point in my language learning where I just gave up and literally TRIED to forget most of what I'd learned so I could give a shot at learning from scratch. I had plenty of Japanese friends and I just decided to listen to as much of their conversations as possible. That's how I developed my ear. I'm not saying that writing or kanji should be ignored forever, but I think students would benefit if they could just listen to the language and learn it that way first. Just because we're adults and start learning a language doesn't mean that we're gonna sound like adults in that language. There's no reason for baby talk either, though. I've read a couple of Japanese books-- ones aimed at elementary school kids. I'm not gonna push myself to understand every nuance of something like yukiguni or something like that. I'm not saying I'm the best learner by any means... but I feel like you're questioning my intelligence. A book or two that I've seen recommended on this site for Japanese learning were actually written by some of the teachers I had, by the way. I'm not trying to brag, but my Japanese is perfectly fine. It can still use a lot of work. My spoken Japanese is fine, I would assume, as I'm mistaken for a Japanese over the phone. After talking to someone for a while, I could tell them I was born in the area that I live and they will seriously believe me... even though I'm standing right in front of them as white as white can get with my brown hair and green eyes. There are certain things that no ammount of studying from a book or cramming will get you, and that's what I was looking for-- a means to communicate. However, the more I think about it, the more I realize there IS a big part of this picture that I'm not seeing (as I am not really connected with it). People who study Japanese are usually into manga and stuff like that, so they are looking to study written Japanese as a way to understand the 'source' of what they like. I can accept that... but for people outside of that demographic, I'd suggest more listening and observation of the Japanese language. With that said, am I really the minority here? Is that what most people want? To understand how to read Japanese right off the bat? Please don't get me wrong though, Columbine... it is obvious that Kanji is a totally important part of learning Japanese and it would be bogus to dismiss it completely... all I'm saying is that it could be ignored for a year or so longer than it is presently for Japanese as a second language learners. There's no doubt that kanji also helps with speaking/listening to Japanese. Hearing a word that you've never heard before and understanding it because you've imagined its kanji is a good feeling as a learner and without a dobut an integral part of the language. And I do apologize to the topic creator as my argument has strayed quite a bit from the topic at hand.
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05-28-2010, 10:51 PM
I am going to step in as someone who is both fluent in Japanese and an actual linguist who did a long term(ish) study on this, and say that I pretty much agree with most of what steven is saying... And that it looks like parts of what he is haying has been sadly misunderstood.
Kanji IS important. But there is little point in pulling it out as soon as it generally is if the aim is to reach functional fluency as soon as possible. If your goal is written translation, etc, then there is a point to weighting kanji over spoken fluency... But in most cases that isn`t the goal, and kanji does little other than discourage. I posted a summary of the study somewhere here in the past but can`t find it to link to, so will quote from a copy I saved from around 3 years ago (because I never wanted to summarize the thing from scratch again...) In a study involving 32 (of school age 6+) children and 87 (between 18 and 49 at the start) adults acquiring Japanese as a second language over a period of 2 years - those with the highest level of fluency at 6 months, 1 year, and at the end of the period were those who chose a learning method following the path of "least resistance" - that of acquisition based on frequency with guidance. In other words, learning based on the frequency which they encountered words and patterns, with guidance for harder bits. This was true for both adults and children. Those who had the highest level of fluency at 3 months were the same group that had the lowest levels at the end of the 2 year period - the adults who were in a strict course, starting with polite forms and adult grammar. They had the advantage on the earliest tests as they were further along with reading and grammar in the first session, but quickly lost that advantage as their acquisition slowed quickly after this point. They were also unable to adapt to a situation - a skill that was prevalent from the 3 month stage with the other subjects. The study was conducted to compare acquisition based on learning order, and whether there was a difference in optimal order between adults and children. Those in the "strict" course were not all in one school (or school at all) and were not using the same textbook or method. The thing that tied all of those in that group together was the following of a "traditional" study order, which is followed by the majority of text books. This is all beginning with polite speech then written language, with introduction to more informal forms coming very much later. We started with 100 adults. 13 dropped out or left the program when they gave up on Japanese - and almost all of them were in a traditional study order, all of them leaving after beginning kanji. We also noted a huge difference in confidence between the groups, with the textbook ordered group having the lowest, and the frequency ordered having the highest. Traditional ordered learners showed higher levels of stress and confusion when encountering words, patterns, and situations with which they were not familiar. They also expressed a greater negativity overall. Even the most motivated learners tend to lose momentum very quickly when they start being pushed to learn to write in a language they are not verbally proficient in. I think this is what steven is trying to point out. If you are a poor speaker of Japanese, jumping to kanji so quickly is going to do the opposite of helping you... It will do very little other than discourage and frustrate - even in an immersion situation. Both small children and adults are capable of learning a language in similar ways. An acquisition pattern based on listening and learning doesn`t mean that adults will sound like small children - the peer group is different. People baby talk to a baby, and then when they go off to school they are surrounded by peers with relatively basic language skills. An adult learner gets a form of baby talk (simplified basic language), but one they reach a certain point learn from peers. And an adult`s peers are adults. They won`t end up speaking like a small child because they are not in the same situation. Quote:
If you do not know the word, or would not easily understand the explanation of it in Japanese, there is no reason to learn the kanji at that point. I see SO many people trying to pick up vocabulary by cramming kanji, which seems completely silly. Especially when they are trying to remember on, kun, and a handful of meanings - a bunch which only apply in one single compound. It`s far more natural, reasonable, and flat out easier to already have the vocabulary and apply the kanji to it. When you see a known word written in kanji, it should be a matter of "So that`s how it is written!" Obviously there are exceptions to this, but there is absolutely no reason that an elementary learner should be dealing with them. Other things are much more important than your "kanji count"- like, say, working toward actually being able to communicate.
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05-29-2010, 12:17 AM
Nyororin
I think learning to recognize a kanji and remembering how to write it are 2 very different things. I think it's okay that learners don't write in Kanji. Even Japanese write things like 皮ふ. And in JLPT we can see words like 火さい(災 is beyond that level). But learners should be able to recognize and understand Kanji, at least the basic ones, because modern Japanese is still heavy in Kanji, to the extent that a Chinese who have no Japanese education can understand around 20% of Japanese text. Okay. At the very very least, learners must learn the basic 100~200 kanji such as 日月木水人大小一二三…If learning these easy Kanji is a challenge for someone who aims at being a fluent speaker, I strongly recommend him to think twice before investing his time. Also, if you teach learners the origins of the Kana, chances are they will learn more than 50 kanji without paying extra effort. も＞毛、や＞也、け＞計、あ＞安、い＞以、ク＞久、れ ＞礼. Why not? Finally, to be honest, can a fluent but illiterate Japanese speaking foreigner find a respectable job in Japan? (It is a question. I really don't know the answer.) And yes, if you don't know how to read Kanji, you are illitereate.
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05-29-2010, 01:17 AM
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What IS being said is that they should not take the level of priority that they typically do in the learning process. You should NOT be working on your kanji before you have a good grasp of the spoken language. You should not be trying to memorize a kanji when you may not even know a SINGLE word in which it is used. They SHOULD be studied, but NOT as quickly as they typically are. The example of 5 and 6 year olds learning kanji is given. It`s actually 6 and 7 year olds (you have to be 6 to start 1st grade) - but regardless, the kanji they learn are for words they already know. They don`t get a list and learn to read a bunch of "on" and "kun" readings. They start with one meaning, the most familiar to them, and don`t even touch on and kun until later. But yet it`s used as an example that even elementary Japanese learners should be picking up kanji from the start. My son knows about 5 kanji, a couple compounds with multi kanji (like kindergarten and the name of our town, etc)... But despite being far far behind in language skills - he is STILL "fluent". Children who start learning kanji already know the language. Being expected to learn the language THROUGH kanji is a bit odd, really, and is the root of some serious frustration for learners. Quote:
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05-29-2010, 03:46 AM
Nyororin, I'm very happy that you came because it seems that you are able to convey what I'm trying to say better than I can.
I've studied linguistics quite a bit and it seems that while people assume that different methods of learning (as in order of things) should be applied to adults and children... but it seems that every time there is a study done on it, the opposite of this tends to become apparent. So I think that languages, my experience being with Japanese and English, are taught in a very strange order that doesn't seem to make much sense. The order normal people acquire a language in is this: Listening, speaking, reading, writing... with observation being a huge part of listening. It's almost as though people go to great efforts to teach a language in the opposite order than is natural. I'm not trying to bring down my teachers, as my college teachers explained very clearly that they knew what the natural order of acquiring a language was-- they had to focus more on writing and advanced stuff to comply with all of the 2世人 students who attended the classes. I think as a teacher, it's hard to justify telling your kids to just listen to language for 2 or 3 years, but that would be the best prerequisit for any language course. Teachers have to have things to grade and that's why they apply writing so early on in my opinion (now I'm talking about non-college level). If you, as a learner, don't have to deal with school, I'd put you at an advantage in that you probably won't get burned out by all the work thrown at you. If that is the case, then I think you'd be better off listening to/watching as much Japanese conversation as you possibly can and your brain will do the rest (in understanding words and being able to figure out where words begin and end). After a lot of listening, I would advise trying to speak. The technology is there, so by all means record yourself and listen & compare your speech to native speech (although this may, too, be a little discouraging at first). After you've got your basics down, then make an attempt at learning how to read/write. What I don't understand is, is that we have all kinds of technology. Language books are in my opinion so obsolete. I hope that someone will make some kind of 'video book' that has no written language and just focuses on spoken language and its context. Audio tapes alone don't make sense at all, as the context of the language is slimmed down a lot by subtracting the visual aspect to the language. Sometimes I think the schools in my area should show english television shows and stuff like that to elementary school students from first grade and up. Instead of buying all of these bogus books and materials, just give the kids ENGLISH in its pure form... but that's straying even more from the topic. You guys all seem very adamant about the importance of written langauge. If you had to choose between written or spoken language as being more important, which would you choose? Personally, I think spoken language wins hands down. I wonder how much class time is allocated to spoken vs. written, and what the results of all that is. These are studies that would be nice to have-- although I'm sure they are already out there. So that's kind of what I'm getting at, people are pushing for kanji learning when there hasn't been nearly enough studying time allocated for actual spoken langauge. I think that early on, focus should be put on cultural differences and spoken language (and by culture, I'm not talking about kimonos and green tea). So I'm pushing for Kanji to be held back a bit, thus putting stroke order out of the question for beginners. I'd argue that stroke order should be taught simultanously with kanji learning though. As a side note: I can't tell you how many people I've met who have talked to me about how they're gonna take the JLPT 2 or 3 and how they're cramming kanji for it and what-not. Some of them even come to me for advice. These are people who probably couldn't understand a lick of natural everyday Japanese, and yet they're learning kanji that I've never even seen before. The illeterate, but fluent person you guys are referring to is almost completely me. I can read a little bit but probably couldn't compete with a 2nd grade Japanese student. I may be a little late in starting to study Kanji (I've made many attempts in the past but don't have the attention span), but now I'm seriously starting it. It feels a million times easier to look at a kanji that I'm studying and know the words complete usage in spoken Japanese. I finally feel like "cramming kanji" has a purpose now (with years of studying under my belt now). I have my JLPT practice books that I've barely touched... but I'm gonna go ahead and skip those and just practice from whatever kanji is in the cirriculum for actual Japanese elementary students.
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