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06-16-2010, 11:30 AM
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06-16-2010, 01:13 PM
Thanks, Sashimister, for the straightforward response. I appreciate it.
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 Out of curiosity, SHADOW, in reference to what steven + MMM shared... Quote:
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I suppose one aught to take advantage Japanese offers of cutting out useless pronouns when possible.
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06-16-2010, 01:43 PM
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Oh well lol.
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06-16-2010, 11:11 PM
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06-16-2010, 11:36 PM
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 Guys do it just as frequently, so I am having trouble seeing what has been "verified" here.
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06-17-2010, 12:34 AM
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I Didn't mean to upset anybody or sound like "We've got the final say! Aha-Proof is in the puddin'!" Just one more thing...Might this be relevant at all concerning your geography and friends? Quote:
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06-17-2010, 12:54 AM
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Referring to yourself by name is more common among females in general. THIS is what MMM was referring to - calling yourself by your name instead of using some other pronoun or form of reference. He was stating that there didn`t seem to as big of a gap between the types of references used when in Kansai. There is no gap whatsoever in the amount that men and women refer to themselves in some form, and no one has said there is. It was all about using your own name to refer to yourself. You seem to have interpreted this as meaning that using any reference other than a straight pronoun is a feminine thing. It`s not at all, and living directly between Tokyo and Osaka - I`d say that there is really only a small difference in the usage between the areas. Say, a difference of 10 or 15% - not enough to mark something as "feminine". Just like 10% more children than adults using ぼく doesn`t mark it as being "childish". I`d say that when you do refer to yourself, using an indirect reference, like 自分, is probably the most common among men and women everywhere I have ever been in Japan. I`ve been translating a literal mountain of business related correspondence recently - it`s 90% between men and personal references use names just as commonly as any other reference. I would be very wary of jumping to conclusions. Where did you hear that ぼく was childish or that referring to yourself was feminine?
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06-17-2010, 01:15 AM
It is more of a regional thing, I'd think. There is definately more what they call "feminine" language used by men in the Kansai region, as MMM said. I don't live in Kansai, but linguistically speaking, it's closer to Kansai than it is Edo-ben. Because of that, men here are more prone to use more feminine language, which is something I think I like more about Kansai-- there's a bit more flavor in the language. As far as my experience goes, I've never heard a man referring to himself by his own name without having it be used in a joking manner. People do it, but it's usually for comedic purposes. It's not something I'd ever do in the workplace.
As Sashimister pointed out, you can use just about any words you want. I've head a guy say "Atashi" before, too. He was clearly そっち、though. The language that you use, especially how you refer to yourself and who you're talking to totally changes depending on the situation. I probably use おれ、わたし、and ぼく all in the same day on a regular basis. I'm not gonna look my boss in the eye and say おれ, because it just feels weird and out of place. Another thing that I've noticed is that you can even call other people ぼく or おれ if you want to. I think it's usually looking a little bit down on them though. It's funny because I've even called some of my students (the girls of course) あたし, which usually gets a laugh. That could be a regional thing, but I've head it used enough times to confirm that it's not just something that a small group of people I know use. Nyororin, I have to admit that at one point I was under the impression that ぼく was childish, too. It was right before and right after I got to Japan (to live here). I don't have that perception anymore, but I do know that most of my elementary school students would write "ぼく" whenever they wrote something-- and they would say "ぼく" during speeches. During most conversations though, I heard a lot more of おれ. In a sense, I'd see おれ as being more little-boyish because little kids (and even young adults) seem to use it to their teachers/elders etc. That might be a misconception on my part though... I've heard/seen that happen so much that I guess it's just how students talk to their teachers. There's also the inaka factor, which I guess implies that the language here isn't as "sophisticated" as big cities (which is how I think a lot of people look at it).
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06-17-2010, 01:48 AM
Okay. Wow. I see where I got off track. I completely misunderstood SHADOW in that post about his friends. I was thinking he meant they referred to themselves in the third-person. :P
Apparently, I kept reading into the posts what wasn't there-as well as leaving out an important bit of what I had intended to say. '...it seems that referring to one's self (by name) is more common among females...' I understand that people refer to themselves, I was just confused as to why-through my misinterpretation-you were saying that it's not very uncommon for guys to call themselves by name. I got my information from forums, web-searches, etc. After I read one post saying that ぼく is considered childish, I googled it and came up with a ton more results with the same opinion-some people claiming that Japanese friends told them not to use the word. :P Just do a search for 'boku is childish'. Sorry for making such a mess of that! I definitely need to be more specific in my speech. Thanks for calling me out on my mistake.
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06-17-2010, 03:00 AM
Man...my mind is not working right now. I see how I came to the conclusions I did. SHADOW said that at the time of the whole remote control 'fiasco' (I'm just having fun with words.
) his friend referred to herself with a pronoun. However, "...The rest of the time its been their own name or 自分." therefore, I assumed that he was in the company of female friends, and my I continued to post with that in mind.Also, thanks, steven for that last post. Here's something mildly interesting... I stayed with a host family during my last trip to Japan, and I spent plenty of time asking my host mom questions about the language. I had learned to say おとこにひと, 'OtokonoSHito', but my host mom said that it should be pronounced 'Otokonohito', with a whispered 'h'. When I asked a Japanese friend I met up with later how she pronounced it, she agreed with the 'OtokonoSHito' version. Both people are from Tokyo and-I believe-are Tokyo natives.
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